Piedmont Social History Project

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1 THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL SOUTHERN ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Piedmont Social History Project Interview with RICHARD TRICE February 16, 1978 and-march 1, 1979 Durham, N.C. By Glenn Hinson Transcribed by Stephanie M. Alexander Original transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection Louis Round Wilson Library

2 1 Glenn Hinson: Allright. Richard Trice: Well I went to work at Ligget and Myers in the green season. Well the reason, how I got there, was on account of my cousin, George Trice. He was already working there so he got me on, helped get me on at the green season. I worked there two green seasons,^and then I went to work at a sawmill. I worked there about a year. I quit and I went back to Ligget and Myers and I got on regular as a year round hand. And I was working in the storage department that was handling the barrels of tobacco. So I worked in town and out in the country too. I went there in 1940 and I worked up into '41, the last of '41. And then I quit, went up the road, and that was it. So when you first went into the factory though, in the green season, that was in the late thirties? Yeah, about the last of the thirties. At that point were you living here in Durham or were you living. No I was living in the country at that time. Where? Oh, you know where my mother and them lived out there, well I lived up the road there about two miles up the road. That's where I was born and raised at. Two miles? Up beyond where my mother lived. Beyond Mount down on Mount Sinai Road. No, it wasn't on Mount Sinai Road, it was just on Route 1, Durham. That was about two miles beyond them straight on up the road. So that's where I was living then.

3 2 So you were living out there and you would come into Durham. No I was living out there but when I was working in the green season, I was staying with my cousin in Durham. Up in... That was George? George Trice, up in Hickstown. I was rooming with him. And the weekend I'd go back out in the country, then I'd come back to Durham that night, you know, Sunday night or say Monday morning. Because see I was working at night, so I stayed down there with him all during the week, weekend I'd go home. And when I got on regular then I still stayed down there at night, and I'd go home at the weekend. Was this the first job that you'd had in the city of Durham? Yeah, it was my first job. Why did you want to get this job? Well, you know, it was like anything else. Everybody wants to try to improve themself you know. I just wanted to make more money. So you could make more money working here in town than you could out there in the country. Yeah well, see, as I say before I went to started working at green season I was working with a guy that run a dairy, on a farm out there. Well, you know, you don't make too much money back there in them days. You didn't make too much money five or six, seven dollars a week. That ain't no money you know. But I see'd where I could better myself a little, so my cousin told me he could get me a job on down there so I went on there to work the green seasons there. How much would you make when you worked in the green season? Oh let's see. Let me see, what was they paying a hour. I think it was around thirty-five or forty, forty some cent an hour, you

4 3 know. Because you see, those people wasn't in no union. If you worked there over three months then you'd have to get in the union, but see I never did work there over three months. I just worked there sometime about two and a half, or maybe three months, and then it'd be all over. 'Cause it was just a season thing you see. So I never did get in the union whilst I was in the green season, but when I went back there to get the year round job, then I was there three months, then they put me over in the union see. I worked there until I got hurt. See I got this arm split open there. And I had a lifetime job there. But I don't know, by me being young and didn't understand, you know. The doctor told me to go back to work, so I thought he meant for me to go on back to work and work just like I had been doing you see. And then by me being young and didn't understand, and I got all upset about it. I went back to work like he told me. And when I went back to work I put in my job, you know, and told him that I was going to quit. The boss man, the superintendent, hauled me around for a whole week there, begging me not to quit. 'Cause see they wanted me to stay there to be a piling driver. 'Cause my cousin, that's what he was and he was such a good one, they said they want all the Trice's you know, to drive a piling. But they couldn't never talk me into that. I'd done made up my mind I was going to quit. So I quit, and I went up the road, and then I came back here. So that was the end of that with that Liggett and Myers. Well when you first got your job, you said it was George that got you your job. Yeah. And what was George working in at that time?

5 4 Well he was in the storage department you see. In the storage department. Yeah. Same thing I was doing, handling barrels of tobacco. Was that in the basement? No, no. No, there's see, what you call the storage department. That's the people who handle these barrels of tobacco. Now the green season, that was tobacco that I was handling when I was there at the green season was tobacco that come in here from South Carolina and Georgia you know. See that was green tobacco. Some of it would be in sacks and some of it would be in barrels. Well see, what they had to do to that tobacco is that we'd take it it would come in here on the transfer trucks and train of boxcars. So we'd take that out of these cars and then put 'em on another truck. Well see they had what you call a re-drier here in Durham you see. That tobacco would be carried down there to those sweathouses, they call 'em, put in there and re-dried over again, see what I mean. The fact of the matter, they was carried inside the factory there in them sacks, and run through and dried out, you know what I mean. And then barreled up. They barreled 'em, put 'em in the hogsheads and then they carried 'em and put 'em out there in the storage department. But those that we had, that come in there in the barrels, they was carried and put in the sweathouse see. And that's what you call a sweathouse it's where there's a lot of heat in there. And where was the sweathouse at? It was uptown there, right below the factory, right in back of the factory down there. They'd put those in there and they'd turn that steam and stuff on there and that tobacco'd get seasoned out and cured out in them barrels see. And then they'd take it and use it

6 5 by making cigarettes, cigars, and stuff like that. Was all of the tobacco you were getting, was it all in hands, tied in hands at that time, tied in bundles? No, see like I said, some of it come in there in barrels, and then some come in these bags you know. Right. Now which one of those would've been tied in hands then? They was the one that had to go upstairs, see, and run through the re-drier. They had a re-drier upstair. That's where the women was working at, and that was re-dried up there and then put in barrels see. They were packed in barrels. They have a man up there the tobacco come out over a chute, you know, run right down in a barrel. And they have a man, before it fill up he had to get in there and pack it. Pack that tobacco down in that barrel until it got filled. : And was that loose tobacco? Yeah, yeah. So everything that came in the sacks was loose. up there. Yeah, it had to be run and re-dried, through in the factory Now what about that that came already in the hogsheads? That, that I said had to be put in the sweathouse. Right, and now was that loose or was that in bundles? It was in a barrel, a big barrel. Yes, but inside the barrel, was it just tobacco leaves or were they tied together. Oh, it's tied together, it's tied together, packed in there together. But it's still green, you understand what I mean. It's got to be seasoned out, see. So that's why they put it in that sweathouse to let

7 6 it get seasoned out good see. And it's seasoned out in there and then they take it, transfer it to another house. Like a storage house sometime, they have 'em out yonder, the television station you know. And they carry 'em out there, and see they scatter 'em around, they have the storage houses all scattered around everywhere. Well they carry so many this place, so many that place, you see. And when they run a brand of cigarettes well they use a certain see all the tobacco that's in a barrel has got a number on it. It's like CD-2, and CF and all like that. But see, I don't know, that's the grade of that tobacco. Well the type of cigarette they make, they'll take and run one grade of that and one grade of the other one, to run that cigarette. But we had to get that tobacco up. See what we had to do, go in those storage houses, they give the boss a list of what they want, you know, he's got it on a pad. So he go out there and tell us what he want, and then we have to go through them barrels stacked up in there. We had to go through in there and find every one of those numbers what we had on that pad, and get 'em out and roll 'em out there. And a truck come up there and then we roll 'em out there on a truck. He'd bring 'em back to town and run 'em in to cigarettes. But now what were you doing, you were doing that when you were working in storage, right? Yeah, when I was working year round. What about during the green season, what did you do? All I done was unload tobacco when it come in there on them train boxcars. I'd help unload them and when they come in there on the trucks, I helped unload those. That's all I did.

8 7 So, now, did the trains come right up to the factory? Well not all the time, no. See they got rails out there, runs all around the factory out there. Sometimes he'd park it out there beyond the factory, you know, out there on a sidetrack. Well we'd take a truck and go out there and pull right up against that car. And we'd go in there and open that door and break that tobacco, break those barrels out of there and load 'em on the truck. So the whole time you were working there for the green seasons that you worked, your job then was to move the tobacco from the trucks or from the trains. Yeah, into the factory. Into the factory. Now where did you bring it in the factory? Well we carried it down there, see, at the first floor there, number six. And then they'd take it over there and carry it upstairs. All our job was to get it there and then they'd take it on upstairs. They had people in there to carry it upstairs. See our job was to go out there, to get it from the track or either get it from the flat platform trucks come in there. And after we'd get it inside there, then they'd take it upstairs see. Well some of it, we'd take it off of trucks, some of it would come in there in barrels, we would stack it up in there you know. Because they'd get so much upstairs they couldn't handle it all up there at times, so we'd just stack it up down there. And then when they got caught up then they'd take it out, send it on upstairs on the elevator see. They'd have a man come down, take them barrels on the elevator and carry 'em up. So you were working then on the bottom floor, the ground floor. Well, the green season, yeah. I was there and out on the tracks. On the first floor down there, what they call it, number six.

9 8 When you got the tobacco in the barrels, was that tied in bundles? Yeah, it was tied in bundles. And it was packed down. It was packed down in there, yeah. I- don't know--that come in here I don't know how they packed it, I don't know whether they packed it by a machine or how. But it would be packed in those barrels. Now what about when it came in on sheets, was that tied in bundles also or was that just... Yeah, that was tied, that was tied in bundles. So when they took what was on sheets through the drier.... Yeah, then it was barreled up after they were run through there it come out in a barrel over there. It was packed in that barrel and that barrel was sealed up. Then it was sent out to the storage houses. Right. So did they have somebody hang the tobacco so that it could go through the drier. Did they run the whole sheet through the drier? How did it work? No, no. See this was carried upstairs. The ladies up there it was being used by a belt you know. Those ladies taking that stuff, see. It was carried up there, it was taken and put on a belt. And it was run down there, and they the ones that done the undoing it, you know, and all that. So it could be dried out. The majority was done, put through, by a belt in a machine see. But the ladies had to take their hands and take it and spread it out where it could run through this machine. So they untied the tobacco.

10 9 Yeah, it was untied. And then they spread it out on the belt. Spread it out and it had be re-dried, you know what I mean. See it had to be stemmed, it run through this stemmer. They got a stemming machine, they'd run it through that stemmer and strip all them stems out of there. Then it was rebarreled up. Was it rebarreled loose, or did they tie it back. That what run through that stemming machine, it's loose because it's packed in there 'cause it didn't have any stems in it see. So when you started working there then, was all the stemming done by machines, had they stopped the hand stemming? Yeah, that was done by machine, there wasn't no hand stemming there then. They had machines to do all that. But now, there's some up there I can't tell you about all that, because I never did work up there. I went up there but they didn't allow me to work up there. There's a lot of things in there that I didn't know was going on in there. Because I'd go up there but I couldn't stay up there long because that wasn't my job up there, you know what I mean. And so, I couldn't just come out and say everything that was carried on up there because I did not know it. So how did you go about getting that first job, how did George go about getting that for you? Well you see, just like he'd know a foreman and they'd need some help. He could tell the man, well I know somebody. And he'd tell 'em, well you bring him down here. Well you'd go over there to the they have a little employment office over there at Ligget and Myers you go in there and sign up. You go in and sign up and then they'd send you over there and tell you who to go see, the foreman you go to. You go there and then he'd sign you up on his book. Then you go to work.

11 10 When did you start work usually, what month or what time of year? Well the green season starts in around August and runs on up through September or maybe sometime the first of October, running to about the middle of October. Not over three months, as I said, it runs. So both of those years that you worked on the green season, you started in August. Yeah, around August, somewhere around August there I started. I couldn't say what date it was 'cause it's been so long. But it was around August there. How long had George been working there? Well he'd been there quite a while. When I went there he'd done been there over a year. See he never did work too much green season. He worked awhile but he got on regular 'cause the man that he went under had been knowing him for quite awhile anyway, so when he needed another man then he called him on in. Well now, was George from the same part where you were from, out there on Route 1, Durham? No, he was living well he was born and raised out there. Born and raised out there. Yeah, but he was living here in Durham at that time. Was he older than you? Yeah, about twelve months different Did he come to Durham just to get a job in the factory, was that the reason he'd come to Durham? Well, I wouldn't say that because see, he first was working at a service station in Durham. Then he got this job see, at Liggett and

12 11 Myers. He went there and I think he worked awhile at green season, but it didn't last long and the man called him right on in to work regular. And his job was doing what? He was driving a piling machine. What a piling machine is is to take these barrels of tobacco, it's got a great big broom on the end of it, it run under these barrels of tobacco. Like I said, they stacked the tobacco up in the storage houses. It'd pick those barrels up and carry 'em back. They'd stack 'em up high as this house here. They'd carry 'em up there and there'd be somebody up there on top. Now he'd carry that thing up there to him and drop that barrel off up there and they place it up there on top. They'd just keep stacking 'em up. Was it kind of like a forklift? Yeah, that's what it is, forklift. And then, another thing, it takes 'em down. Like they got to have the tobacco to be carried into the factory to make cigarettes out of. He'd take that and as we get those barrels out, he'd take it and carry it to the door, and the truck would pull up there and then he'd put it on the truck. So that's what that piling machine does. Now was he earning more money working regular than you were earning... Yeah, yeah. And when I went to working regular there he still was making more money, you see, because when you come to be skilled hand, you make more money. He was what they called a skilled driver see. I worked, I labored. 'Cause see he was operating a machine. Anytime you operate something or another you make more money. And then you make more money by working at night. You make more money working at night?

13 12 Yeah, you make a few pennies more at night. Did you work at night during the green season? Yeah, that's when most of my work was, at night. Yeah, in green season. So when would you start? What time I started work? We started at about seven-thirty in the mornings. And worked until? I worked 'till four or four-thirty in the evening. Unless something pushed up, if something come up we'd make a little longer hours. Well what about when you were working at night though? That's what I'm saying. Oh, at night. Oh, we went to work at four let's see it was about four-thirty in the evenings and worked 'till twelve at night. 'Till twelve. And how much of those two green seasons did you work most of that time at night or most of the time.... The green seasons, all of my work was at night. All was at night. Did you prefer working at night? No, I just had to do the way they.... That was when they had... Yeah. Because they had so many that worked in the day time and so many at night. Was that five days a week or did you do any work on Saturday? No, we didn't work on Saturdays. That was just five days a week. And at that time you and George were living over in Hickstown? Yeah, I was rooming with him in Hickstown.

14 13 Right. Where abouts in Hickstown? This time, let's see, we was living on Bailey Street. How big was the house? Oh it was, let's see this house we was at had about three or four rooms I think it was, with the kitchen though. Was it his house, was he renting the house? Yeah, well him and the lady he was going with, yeah. And so you were rooming there. Yeah. How much did you pay for room, do you remember? Now you got me there, I can't remember, (chuckle) That there I can't remember. I don't remember how much I was paying but it wasn't no great big deal. But if you get right down to it I couldn't say 'cause it's been so long, you know, some things you don't even register with you. How did you get from Hickstown to the factory? Oh he had a car. See like I say, I'd go out there I'd go home on the weekend. Well see he'd carry me home and then he'd come out there and get me, and bring me back to town. And would you drive to the factory from Hickstown? Yeah, yeah. 'Cause as I say, he worked awhile at night, green season. And then he was on regular, and he still worked at night while he was working regular. And then I still would ride with him. And when they changed him, then I'd just catch the bus and go on down myself. One thing about the factory, and the conditions there. A lot of people have mentioned to me that especially in the twenties and maybe the first part of the thirties, up on some of the floors of the factory

15 there used to be right smart singing going on. Folks would sing while Trice 14 they'd work. By the time that you started working there was there any of that still going on? Well there might have been a little bit of it, I think I heard a little bit, but not as much as I'd heard about. So you had heard about the singing as well. Yeah, I've heard about it, yeah. Yeah, I'd heard about it 'cause I had a aunt that worked there see. In fact I had two aunties that worked there. Which ones were they? They're passed. One was named Ida Pratt and the other was named Pearlie Jones. Yeah they worked there for a long time. Until their health got bad on 'em you know, then they quit. Whose sister's were they, were they your father's? My mother's sisters. Yeah, I had one aunt that she worked there, she had cancer and she had to quit. The other one, her health got bad on her and she had to quit. What about actual work conditions in the factory. Did you find that people seemed to get along with the management of the factory or was there often a lot of tension there? Well, now it's just like anything else. It wasn't no different in that job and no other job. All jobs has its problems. Sometimes they'd have misunderstood between the foreman and some of the labor, and sometimes there'd be misunderstood between the superintendents and some of the labor, and sometime it'd be between the superintendent and the foremans. Because jobs like that, there's so much going on down there it's hard to carry out everything right. You're just not going to do it because there's too much involved there see. Somethings going to

16 15 be always wrong, and somebody's always got to try to straighten out something or another. There'd be confusion there between all of that. That's inside the factory and outside. What I mean, up there where the ladies worked and all. They'd have confusements and all that that come between them and the foremans. And between each helps in there, all the helps would have different difficulties you know. Because somebody's always would say, you know, on anything somebody's going to be a little bit different, have a little different ideas about different things. Some people getting over, have different ideas about how to do things. Maybe the way you do it, maybe I don't like that way you know. And we would have that little difficulty. But there always some kind of way to iron that out. Well, you talk about the women folks working. Where were most of the women working in the factory? Well they worked upstairs there, where, like I say, on the belts where they stem tobacco, and then they worked over in the cigarette department. Now I wasn't there, some of them parts, like I say, I never did reach. I couldn't tell you how it worked up there. Well were the women working mostly black women or white women? Well they have all kinds up there. But now most in the stemmer department, the majority of them was black, yeah. And the most of white, now they worked over there in probably the cigarette department. What about in the jobs that you worked in. Were all the people black or were there white folks? All the labor was black. Nobody white but the foreman. All the labor was black. No we didn't have a white laborer out there.

17 16 All that was white was the truck drivers and the foremans and the superintendents. Did you all ever do any singing when you were hoisting around the hogsheads or moving... Not too much. Somebody might do it a little bit. But you know, like I said, sometime there'd be so much involved there, you'd have a lot to think about. And then we'd make mistakes. Sometimes we'd go out there to get out the barrels and we'd get out the wrong barrels. And you probably had to tear down about a dozen barrels to get one out. And after you get it out you find out it wasn't the right barrel. And sometimes it would be the barrel that they said and then they'd turn right around from the office and send it back out there and say that they didn't want that barrel. Well you got to put all that back in, and all that kind of confusion now. Was it really dusty in the factory then? Yeah, up there where those ladies worked it was really bad. Because of all that tobacco, and the stemmings and the dust coming from that, and that tobacco would be dry. It was right dusty up there. I said I couldn't stand it up there. But I reckon I could too, but I always said I couldn't. I'd go up there but I couldn't stay up there long, 'cause of that dust you know. I'm bothered with sinus trouble a little bit too, and that dust it would get next to me. But I could've done though I reckon if I ever had to done it. Did you notice whether or not the factory tried in any way to keep the dust down, did they water the floor... BEGIN TAPE I SIDE II

18 17 Did they water the floors sometimes or do anything like that? No, they couldn't do that. You see, in a place like that there's some things you can't do on account of insurance you know. There's some things you cannot do. So they didn't do anything about the dust? Well, there wasn't so much they could do. They had big fans and stuff and all like that running in there. But in a place like that there's so much involved there, they ain't so much you can do about it. It would be hard to keep down all of that because, like I said, there's so much involved there. They could get by with it but a lot of those ladies would be mighty dusty though, all that dust would come from that tobacco up there. Well the men too. In fact the fellow that done the packing the tobacco after it was dry, in those barrels, now he really did catch it. Because see, he got to stand right in there and that barrel coming down that chute there, right down in there on him. He really catches it there. And it's hot in there and that tobacco's hot and he got to stand there and pack that stuff until he gets it clear to up full. Then after that, they seal that tobacco, seal it over and send it out. I wouldn't have wanted to be him. (chuckle) Well it was kind of rough, I'm telling you, it was kind of rough. The people over there back there then, they really caught it. And the ones coming on now, they don't have anything to do. And until they tell those young fellows there about how they do, they look at 'em and laugh. You know, and say, well we wouldn't do it. (chuckle) You know a person just don't know. If he had to have been brought to those things, then they'd a had to done it. "Like some of A

19 18 those were. But it was really hard then. See back there in that time I was there, there was a lot of man-straining going on. You had to do a whole lot be a man. See if you wasn't a man you couldn't stay there. Because they didn't have machines there to do everything like they have now. They had a few, but not many. Most of things was done, was done by hand. They had, like I said, the piling machine, and then they had a lifter out there on the platform. When that tobacco come in there in them barrels on them big trucks they had a lifter that they'd go out there and it would take the tobacco and set it on the platform. But it went a long time before they got that. They had to go out there, before they got that the men had to take a scaffold out there and put it up and roll that tobacco down on that scaffold onto the platform. By hands. And you got to hold that barrel back and you cannot let it run against nothing and bust. How much did the barrels weigh? Different weights. Some weighed thirteen, fourteen, fifteen hundred pounds. Now that was a thirteen hundred pound barrel back that caught my arm and split it open. Where were the barrels made at? They have a shop right there in Durham that they make 'em, right there at the factory. They make them put 'em together at least. They come in there already made but they got to put 'em together, you know, pin 'em. Well while you were doing this work and staying over at Hickstown for these few months, did you do much playing around Hickstown during the day when you had the whole day free?

20 Not too much, no not too much. Most of what I done was at 19 a weekend. Because we didn't have time much. When you get off at twelve o'clock at night, you come in, by the time you got home it'd be before you got in the bed it'd be way after one o'clock. Well you're going to have to try to stay in that bed and get a little rest. Sometime it'd be nine, ten or eleven o'clock before I'd get up. By the time you get up and get straightened out, cleaned up and everything, and get something to - eat, well it wouldn't be long before it'd be time for you to go back to work. So I didn't have too much time to fool with it you know. And then too, when you're working you don't have no energy for nothing like that, not no music. Because you're all tired and everything, and then music your nerves got to be calm you know. So I didn't bother with it too much then. I had my guitar there, my cousin, he'd pick it up and mess with it a little bit. (chuckle) I didn't care too much for it, 'cause, it's a fact, I didn't even feel like messing with it. (chuckle) So you did most of your playing then on the weekends. Yeah, yeah. And you said, that was back out in the country? Well, yeah, like there'd be a party somewhere or another, you know, or something like that. Sometimes there'd be parties in Durham, out in the country, just didn't never know where they were going to be. What about in Hickstown, did there used to be a whole lot going around, in the way of parties and things like that, out there in Hickstown? Well, I think they had a few there but I never did I went to a few parties there but I never did play for none there as I can recall. But I played around at different other parties in town, in the country, like that.

21 20 Was Jesse Pratt living in Hickstown then? Let me see, I don't know whether Jesse was there then or not, because I never did remember running into him. He might have been around there but I didn't ever remember running into him at that time. He could have been there, because by me working like I was working, when I'd be up he'd be at work, so I couldn't say whether he was there or not. Do you remember any musicians or any of the folks who played in Hickstown at the parties, that you saw? Do you remember meeting any piano players or guitarists or banjo players there? No, never did. Never did meet any, not in Hickstown. Now like I say, my cousin, Hubert Sears, he used to play all around up there, but not when I was there. Was that before you were there? Yeah, that was before. Because see, he was a lot older man, see he was an old man. He was along in there with my brother, and older than my brother. So he was out there before I even thought about getting out. He was playing all over town, Hickstown, everywhere, West End, Walltown. Where was he staying? He stayed on the West End most of the time I think. Now Hubert worked at the factory too, didn't he? He worked there a little while I think, not too long. Yeah, he worked there a little while. I don't know exactly how long because I was staying in the country at that time and I wasn't nothing but a little boy either. So I don't know exactly how long he worked there but I don't think he worked there too long, from what I heard my mother and

22 21 father say, 'Cause Aunt Bertha, I don't think she wanted him to work nohow,-he was the onliest child and he was petted, you know how that is. How momma going to do the little baby. So I don't think he worked there too long. It sort of sounds like to me that he got himself into some other things. Yeah, he was involved in a whole lot of things I think, yeah. I don't know exactly all of 'em but I think he become involved because he said that he knowed how to make a living without working, (chuckle) He knowed a whole lot more than I did, I couldn't argue with him on that 'cause I didn't have that kind of sense, (chuckle) I had to work. I don't know, he was involved in a whole lot of things, from what he told me. When you were out there at Hickstown, is that when you you mentioned one time you went over and played at Minnie the Moocher's house a few times. Was that when you were out at Hickstown? No, no. I was living on the West End at that time. Let's see, what street was I living on at that time, when I was playing over there. As I recall I think I was living on Carroll Street, I think I was yeah, I was living on Carroll Street, when I played over there. What was that place like? What's that? Minnie's place. Well, she just had a house there and had a piano in there. She used to serve food and give parties and things like that, and sold all kind of different drinks, yeah, that's what it was. People would come in and out, you know, buying stuff. There's a lot of people involved,

23 22 in and out. But where food is handled and drinks, you know you're going to be involved with a lot of traffic coming in and out. I mean there was white people and all coming in, yeah. Well what about the music, did she have music pretty frequently there? No, not unless it was somebody like Hubert or myself went over there. 'Cause she had a piano there but she couldn't play it. Unless somebody else come in there that could play it. Did she pay people to play? Now I don't know, I couldn't say about other people, but she paid me. She did pay you. Yeah, she paid me. How much did she pay you, do you remember? I don't know, I can't recall, but she paid me. I can't recall how much she paid me, 'cause like I said, some of them things you didn't even register. Would she pay you so much and say stay all evening, or how would it work? Yeah, well, the time I played over there I stayed all night, yeah. And she fed me and I had a nice place to stay and everything. But that time I was involved with drinks myself, so I was using a little of that too you see. You say you were involved, do you mean you were drinking some or you were bootlegging some? No, I was involved, I was drinking what I'm trying to say. Involved in drinking. No, I wasn't doing nothing like that then. I was working. But I would become involved in taking those drinks though, (chuckle)

24 23 Yeah. That's the reason I can say I know all about those things. Ain't nobody can tell me nothing about that, I know what it's all about. Yeah, I've been very involved in it. (chuckle) Richard, did the tobacco factory ever do anything for it's workers in the way of providing entertainment or sponsoring a baseball team or having programs or something for the workers when you were there? There ain't but one thing I can remember and I don't think the factory was involved too much in that. It was just the workers there, some went in together and they'd have a barbecue. They had one barbecue, down on Fayetteville Street. And of course, I never did get none of that, I think all of it got gone before I could even get there, (chuckle) That's the only thing I can recall that ever happened. Like I said, the factory wasn't involved, and that was just the workers I think. Where abouts was that at on Fayetteville Street? Oh it was a house down there. That was before they tore Fayetteville Street down. See where the bypass, you know where Pettigrew cuts off, go straight, you know where the bypass is, where Fayetteville makes a right. Go up there. Well see all of that was houses and business all up and down that street there. And then there was a house up there in that street in there then and I could... Was it right up at that part near Pettigrew? It was up that part there where that overhead bridge is, somewhere along up in there. I just don't know exactly where about but it was somewhere up in there. 'Cause as I say, it was business and houses and all. That street was loaded with business, you know, and houses and things. All the way down clean to the college. I just don't remember what house it was in there, but I remember going there and I know I didn't get nothing to eat, I know that, (chuckle) It'd all done

25 24 gone. They're people you know, as many people as worked at Liggett and Myers, it ain't gonna last long nohow, everybody get around, everybody get a little bit. If you ain't there you're just out of luck. Was there any music there, did anybody come and play in here, did you bring your guitar? No, no. There wasn't no unless the people in the house had it. I didn't even go in the house after I found out that everything was gone, I was ready to get away. 'Cause there wasn't nothing else there to hold me there. So I didn't stay around too long after I found out everything was over with. What were you doing when you worked in the green season, after the green season was over, that first time you worked there. The first time you ever worked at the factory, did you go back out to the country? Went back out to the country, went right back with the same man I was working for. Working on the dairy farm. Yeah. Yeah, and I worked there until I went back to the green season, and I left the green season and went back to the country, and then I went to the sawmill. Went to the sawmill. Sawmill. Now where was the sawmill? Everywhere, we sawmilled out there in the country, and then we came here in Durham. Out here on Alston Avenue. You ever been out on Alston Avenue, way out there on old Alston Avenue road. They done built up there now, 'cause it's nothing like then that it is now. But we went way back out there, and we stayed out there. Me, Willie, and another boy--

26 25 we had us a shanty out there. And we stayed out there until the weekend, 'till Friday, and then we'd go home. Who ran the sawmill? The fellow we worked for, named John Freeman. John Freeman. Yeah. He's got a son, I was told now who's operating it. The old man's done retired I heard, and it seems his son's doing it. But that's who we were working for. So it was a portable sawmill. No, not a portable, it was a big mill. It was a big mill? Yeah. See, he had two at one time. I think he had to close one of 'em down and he only run one. Yeah, we had two saws going, sometime we had three saws going out there in the woods. Me and Willie and all, we worked out there in the woods we worked together cutting logs you know. Had to furnish the mill with logs, that's why we worked there all the time. So you started off in the country. Yeah. Was that down there near where you lived or towards Chapel Hill? No, you know where University Station is? Yeah. That's where we was at, we were working all around on that. All around University Station. Yeah, all up and down that highway out there. Down there, we'd cut logs all down there, and right there at the station too. And so your and Willie's job was to go out and get the logs.

27 26 Cut the logs, yeah. Me and Willie and another boy called Jim Hope. Yeah we worked together and we cut logs. Working with crosscut saws? Yeah. That's all they had then, there weren't no power saw. So you would... (Stop in tape) What you call a logging wagon. It'd come out there, it'd be hooked up to a tractor. And then they had a mule or a horse, one. And the guy that handled the mule, he'd come out there and cut a road in there where this tractor, this logging wagon could get in. Then he'd take that mule and the logs that we cut, he'd take it and pull 'em up in a pile, so many, you know, would load that wagon down. Pull 'em up in a pile and he'd come out there and back up to it and straddle it. 'Cause see it had a big chain, and run that chain under it and then hook that chain on the other side there. And see when they pulled the tongue of that thing down that fastened to the tractor, that picked them logs up, They'd be swinging. That's the way that was done. How were you getting paid, were you getting paid by the... We was getting paid by the hour. Oh, you were getting paid by the hour. Do you remember how much? Yeah, I was making 40* an hour then, that was money, buddy. Was that more than you made at the green season at the factory? It was at the first time, yeah, it was. It was more than I was making at that time. Because see, here's the thing about it. See at that sawmill, we could make all the hours we wanted to. And the man didn't even check me he trusted me and my brother. What I'd tell him, just exactly what he'd give. But I didn't tell him nothing that we didn't

28 27 do. Like I say, we made ten hours or eleven hours, whatever it was I'd tell him and I'd know we done it. He'd pay us. So what did you average a day out there, how many hours? Well, I'd say about ten would be the average. Five days a week? Yeah. From nine to ten hours I'd say we'd average. Now, unless something or other'd happen. Sometime it would rain or something like that, and you'd have to quit. But if it stayed pretty we'd go out there and make nine to ten hours a day. Now with a mill that big, if you had two or three saws running, how many other men were out cutting logs. Was it just you three? Now, it'd be two saws out there running. There'd be two saws running. Two saws running, yeah. And how many other men would be cutting the logs? Well they would have two saws and there'd be three men to the saw. Most of the time it was. It was that way until my brother quit, and then there wasn't nobody with me but me and the other boy. But see when we had three men there, one of the men done all the notching the trees and trimming 'em up after we cut 'em down. See, cut the limbs off 'em. And they had a stick, see, them logs we cut had to be cut a certain length. And it was anywhere from eight foot to ten to twelve and fourteen feet. So he done all of that, the man that done the trimming up. He had to measure the log and done the trimming up, and then we done the sawing. That way we could go faster 'cause then the man that done the pulling the saw didn't have to quit to do no notching and trimming up. So there were three people getting logs, were there three people on each saw running the saw?

29 28 What you talking about, out there in the woods? What you mean, in the woods cutting the logs? No, I mean at the mill. At the mill. Well there's more people more people there in that you see, because at a mill there he's a man to turn the logs. Then the man that runs the saw, then there's a man out there working on the green end as that lumber being sawed and carried out there, he's got to stack that lumber. And then there's a man out there to carry the slabs. So they have more men in there. How many of those men were white and how many were black? There wasn't no white there, nobody but the bossman and the man that hauled the lumber come and got the lumber, that was all. Everybody was black. And I take it at that time you all were living at home. Out in the country. But when we was here in Durham working, we were staying down here in the shanty. In the shanty. Yeah, we had to build us a house you know. You all built it? Yeah, well the bossman did, he built it. We had to stay there 'cause we didn't have no transportation. He would have carried us back and forth but it would've been too hard on us to get off that evening that late and then go way home and then to have to fix 'cause my mother, she was working in Durham and we'd a had to fix our own fixing. And then we'd have to get up the next morning and fix our lunch and everything. That would've just been too hard. So we just stayed down there. Did the three of you stay in the shanty together?

30 29 Yeah. Were there any others that stayed there too or just the three? Well there was one or two more that stayed there at times, but they were not regular 'cause see some people would work awhile and quit, you know, and lay out and all like that. But the majority of the time it was just us three or four there. And what kind of house is a shanty built was it made with slabs or planks or logs? It was made with lumber, mostly green lumber. Was it one room? Yeah, well, what you'd say about one room. It was big, you know, a lot larger it was something bigger than this here. It was there back in there practically. Had beds, you had a bed on each side back here and back there we cooked and eat. Right. When you were living in a shanty, how did you take care of paying for your food and all that. Was that taken out of your salary? No, no. We didn't do it like that. See, out there at University--the man that run the store out there, I been knowing him, we'd been knowing him all of our life. I'd go by there and we'd get what we wanted and if we wanted to pay for it then we'd pay for it, if we didn't we'd just go on and pay for it on the weekend when we got off from work. Well most of the time, when we got off from work, we'd come by there and pay him. We bought our own food and carried it down with us. And was that the same crew when you were out in the shanty. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say, yeah. That's what we were doing, we were buying it there when we were working at the shanty. See we'd carry it...

31 30 You were buying it out at University Station. Yeah, and carry it down there. I see. Yeah, 'cause see we couldn't carry what we needed from home 'cause we didn't have that much food to do us a week. And with three or four it'd take right smart, so we'd just go by and buy what we wanted and if we wanted to pay for it then, we'd pay for it, if we didn't we we wouldn't. We'd just wait and pay for it the weekend. Well now how did you say your brother quit. Yeah, he worked awhile but he quit. Why did he quit? Well I don't know, I reckon he just got tired of working at a sawmill. He wanted to try something else, (chuckle) So he quit. I worked on a right good while and then I quit and I come on to Liggett and Myers, come down here and got my job. My cousin told me that the man wanted me, told me all I had to do is come down there and put in my application, you know, and sign up. Well he said it then, I just signed up. He told me the man done told me he wanted a man, so that's what I did. Well why did you quit the sawmill? That's what I'm saying, I went to Liggett and Myer where I was... Yeah but why. Were they going to give you more money than you were making... I was making more money and had a year round job, and inside too. That's why; 'Cause you remember me saying I quit for better convenience. So that's why I quit.

32 31 After you quit the green season the second time and you went out and started working at the sawmill, how many months did you work there. Did you work there about a whole year? At the sawmill? Yeah. Pretty much, pretty much a year. I just don't know exactly how long, but it was pretty much a year. You worked right through the winter? Yeah, we worked in the winter some, 'course it'd get bad, rain and all like that, we'd just have to stay in and not do nothing 'till it got where we could work. And if the weather kept on getting bad and everything and it looked like it wasn't going to slack up we'd just leave and come home. 'Cause you didn't get paid for that right? We didn't get paid for the time we didn't make, no. We got paid for what we done. 'Cause if we worked two or three days and it started to set in raining or got bad where we couldn't work, then we'd just go home. But we got paid for that. 'Cause what he done, he held back see our time, we'd go in on Wednesday, and that Thursday and Friday went to the next week, see what I mean. And if we didn't work any at all the next week, we still would have two days in to draw for. Right. So let's say if you worked Thursday and Friday and if it snowed or rained on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you'd get your pay on Wednesday for the Thursday and Friday of the week before. Yeah, I'd get it on the weekend 'cause that's when he'd pay off. 'Cause he wouldn't never go to the bank and draw out the money until the weekend, I mean 'till Friday, to pay off. Everybody have

33 their rules and regulations to go by. But if it happened like that then 32 we'd get paid on Friday. If it happened where we didn't make more time that next week, we'd still get paid for them two days. Was there a lot of turnover there at the sawmill? What do you mean, laying people off? Yeah, well laying people off or people just leaving after awhile. Oh yeah, yeah. People would work awhile and quit, yeah. Had a whole lot of that. Yeah, we were short of help around there a lot of times. Sometimes we'd have to quit, go in and help 'em out at the mill 'cause some of the fellows would lay out, and quit, and we'd have to help out around there until he could get somebody else. Why do you think that was true. Why would people turn over so fast? Well I don't know. You see, people, like I said, people with all kinds of ideas, and some people would work awhile at some place until they find they can see something else better well they're gonna go to it, you know what I mean. It would happen like that. And there's some people in the world, that they just don't believe in going out and working regular. They'll work awhile, quit, and like that. So we run into all kinds of those kind of problems like that. Was it pretty rough out there? What you mean? I mean, well I've heard stories about some sawmills where all the men staying in shanties and all. BEGIN TAPE II SIDE I

34 33 And how there was right smart gambling going on. Not where we was, we didn't have none of that, none of that, no. Everybody was just as calm as me and you sitting in here. We went in, We fixed us something to eat and sit down to eat. And we'd sit around and talk about, you know, different things, until we got sleepy and tired and go to bed. We'd take a bath and go to bed. What about music? Me and my brother both had guitars there. Of course I had two guitars back there at that time. I didn't ever carry my steel on the job, I had a wooden, I'd carry it down. Yeah we had that there. Some of the boys would get 'em and mess with them you know, if I didn't feel--'cause a lot of the time I didn't never feel like messing with it. (chuckle) You work out there ten hours, nine, ten hours pulling a crosscut saw, you didn't want to see nothing but something to eat and the bed. (laughter) Well some nights we would come to Durham down there to a movie, there'd be a certain picture on we'd want to see, we'd come down there and see that. Where you'd go to the Wonderland or the Regal? The Regal, that was when the Regal was in bloom. They played a lot of western pictures on. They run 'em through in the week and on the weekend too. And sometime there'd be a picture that we'd like to see, something like Bob Steel, Tim McCoy, or I don't know, John Wayne or some of them guys we'd like to see. Come down and look at it. Did you carry your guitars with you? No, not then, (chuckle) Only time that I remember carrying my guitar, let's see, we was down in Durham one day that was when I was working on a highway up here. I helped pour that bridge, you know that bypass back of Hillsborough there. That highway that bypasses Hillsborough.

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