Mr. Haitsuka granted his personal release of the interview records to Maly on November 4, 1996.

Sadao and Minnie (Wong) Haitsuka K/ne ohe Bay Fisheries and the MIkapu Fishponds April 18, 1995 Interview with Kep/ Maly 4 (KPA Photo No. SH-MH041895) The late Sadao Haitsuka was born at Ppa aloa, Hawai i in 1914 and moved to Kne ohe, O ahu by 1916. Shortly after their move, Sadao s father began working for Kne ohe Ranch with A.S. Chaney. By the early 1920s, his father was farming a large section of Luluku, growing taro and later, bananas. At early ages, Sadao and his nine brothers and one sister took on responsibilities on the farm, and some of them began fishing as well. Both Mr. Haitsuka and his wife, Minnie Wong-Haitsuka, are very knowledgeable about families and events in the Kne ohe area from the 1920s. One of the many observations they provide in the interview, is a description of the closing of Kne ohe Bay to fishermen, following the outbreak of World War II. And of particular interest to this study is Sadao s detailed descriptions of pond use and pond modifications made in the 1950s. Sadao notes that by the 1950s, the Kne ohe Bay side wall of Nu upia Fishpond had collapsed. He and his brother-in-law, Keichi Okihiro, rebuilt the entire wall making use of equipment and other resources of the family s tractor and trucking business. The wall was widened, and the m k h was placed on the Halekou Pond side of the new Nu upia wall (near the present Alpha Gate H-3 entrance). Mr. Haitsuka describes stocking fish ( ama ama and awa) in the ponds, use of the m k h, and harvesting and marketing the fish. Mr. Haitsuka granted his personal release of the interview records to Maly on November 4, 1996. Thank you both so much for taking the time to see us this morning. Oh. I ve enjoyed so much [seeing your fishponds outside]. You re out here in Kapoho, taking care of your own fishponds again. Your place is beautiful And that you are still working your fishponds like before. So, what I d like to ask if I could Mr. Haitsuka, if you would give us your full name please? Yes, my name is Sadao Haitsuka. And what year and date were you born please? I was born in the Big Island, at Papaloa [Ppa aloa, North Hilo]. Ppa aloa? 4 Also in company of Dr. Diane Drigot, Head, Environmental Affairs Division, MCBH. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1327 HiPae74-121003

Yes. Okay. 1914. 1914, and the month and day? January the 4th Okay, you lived down in He eia, by the fishpond area also? MH: No, on the main road. On the main road, sort of by the bridge? MH: Where the school is. No, you know where the King Intermediate School is? Oh is that across from Nishi Camp?... [thinking] No Nishi Camp was more low. Yes Nishi Camp was more down. Okay, so when I was talking with Mits Uchibori, that is how I had learned that your brother-in-law, [Keichi] Okihiro... Yes. And you folks had cared for some of the fishponds out at MLkapu. So I went and spoke with your sister a few weeks ago and Mike her son; so we did an interview with them, and that s how she...shizue had said that you were living up here and that we should try and talk with you folks What did you do as a child when you lived on O ahu? Well, the only thing I did was help my dad on the farm. And your father had a farm in what area? Luluku. Luluku. He was there, I don t know how many years. He worked for the Kne ohe Ranch, when Mr. Chaney was [manager]. I don t know how many years, maybe about...oh, I can not remember. Maybe about four or five years, he was there. What did papa do? I don t know what he did for the ranch, maybe a handy man there And did papa become a fisherman? No, no, never was a fisherman. Farmer all his life How many years were you doing construction before your brother-in-law, with Blackie Yanagihara, got you into the fishponds? Well from about... [brief discussion between Mr. and Mrs. Haitsuka regarding the starting date of this activity] 1939 we started here, up till then I was with the City. Okay, so you started Haitsuka Brothers? MH: No, it was Kne ohe Tractor Service at that time. And the office was at home. Right in Kne ohe Discusses Kne ohe Bay fisheries and use of the fishponds: How did you get involved with Blackie Yanagihara? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1328 HiPae74-121003

Well, he was in Honolulu. I think the wife was the sister of that... MH: Otani. Otani, the big fish market in Honolulu. Then he moved to Kne ohe. And Blackie, he used to do that glass bottom boat. Oh, okay, from He eia Pier? No, no, from Coral Gardens. Oh the yacht club by where your sister lives? No, no, Coral Garden, that s Waikalua side, right on that beach. There s one little boat pier down... It s all broken now. He used to have that pier. [opening up a map] We re looking, I m going to pull this map out, this is HTS Plat 2043. Uh-hmm. I m just going to orient us a little bit...this is He eia fishpond. Here s O ohope Fishpond. This is where your sister lives, right here. Oh that small one, yeah. The small fishpond. Here s Coconut Island, you come around Waikalua fishpond... Yes. Right here s the boat harbor, Waikalua. Had before. Yes, yes. So this is where the Coral Garden boat tour went out? MH: Uh-hmm. Yes, the glass bottom boat. Oh, so wasn t at He eia? No, no, He eia was after this place. Okay, so Blackie was running tours, yeah? Yes, he used to run the tours out to Coconut Island, right around the reef and he used to come back here. Do you remember about what year, what time maybe? MH: Before the war. Well I was in business already, he was...he did this thing before my time, so I think it was about maybe 1930, somewheres around there. Did he used to go out at MLkapu where Davis lived...and Aunty, you said you used to go out to Davis? MH: Uh-hmm. There was a pier out there. Yes, yes a long pier. Do you recall if his tour went out this side or was it primarily along this side, around Coconut Island and the coral [heads]. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1329 HiPae74-121003

No, the tour was here [pointing to the map], where is Coconut Island? Right here. Yes, he drove to here, there was all coral reef over here. Okay, I m going to draw a line here, so he drove from here, around towards Coconut Island... Yes. And then you know around Coconut Island, there s a reef. An open channel, here s the channel. Yes. There s reef right around there. So he used to take the glass bottom boat right around here. Then they reach another reef some place here. He used to take them around this reef and back here. Did he go all the way around Coconut Island and come back through the reef? Yes, sometimes, sometimes he goes around, sometimes not. So who was going out on these tours? From Honolulu, from all the big hotels. MH: WaikKkK. I guess he had some kind connection, so they bring them down. Yes, he was quite a big man over here at one time. And his wife s family you said was Otani, fish people? Yes, yes. So somehow, from his...war time came and his boat couldn t run any more... Oh yeah, oh yeah. No more, no more. Kne ohe Bay was closed off to fishermen during World War II: No one could go fishing even? Is that right? Can not, can not, yeah. People were not allowed to go out fishing in the ocean like that? Yes Then after the war, the glass bottom...real, I don t know how many years after the war, the pier where he was doing, was no good, so he moved to He eia. He eia Pier So later, Blackie was running his tours then out of the He eia Pier side? Yes. I don t know how long he run and then he gave up. Now this is after the war? Yes, after he moved here [He eia], I don t know maybe about two-three years I guess and then business wasn t too good. MH: Who was running that? Joe Wale and Nmanu the cripple guy. Nmanu? Yes, he used to live at Waikalua too. I think he s gone too. MH: He was nice to us, free rides all the time. Oh yeah, he used to take you folks all the time. And was nice, the reefs like that? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1330 HiPae74-121003

Oh yes, oh the reefs there was...all kinds of coral fish, all kinds, all kinds. When they were dredging, like, did the dredging affect? Do you know, do you remember what was the water like when they were dredging? Well it caused a little bit murky, but it wasn t that bad, cause see where they had dredged where the plane used to come, it used to have reefs all in there. They used to go fishing, anchor the boat, and we used to go fishing there. What you see [on the map], here s Coconut Island. Okay, all right. Now this is the reef in 1916, never cut. Yes, okay, you see that Coconut Island, we used to live, lets see now. We used to live...this is... Waikalua. Yes. This is... The He eia fishpond. Yes. Here s your sisters place here. Yes. So we used to live here some place. And from here, we used to go fishing inside here, all this reefs here. Because there s a channel here. Here s the channel here [pointing to the map]. And this channel, almost smack when you go out, the reef was almost smack. We used to anchor alongside this channel to fish. Hook fish, what kind of fish you caught? Ohhh [with emphasis] all those small fish, maka and all those little fish. Maybe some time p pio. So when they dredged, they dredged all this out here. So when they were dredging, you were still fishing some time? Yes, yes. And didn t seem to affect water too much? No, no, well in here we didn t go, we came more around this side [pointing to the map]. Ah, this is more open so it was being flushed out. Yes, yes, we came out this side. Kekepa was good squidding ground: How about out towards Kekepa, you went out this Turtle Rock? Yes, we used to go squidding there. used to be a good squidding ground. And right below that that channel, I think maybe dredged quite a bit over there. So the squid ground over there all used to be a lot of squid you know. We used to go with the flat bottom boat, two people on each side, one on this side, one on this side. My brother-in-law used to park the boat and then we just sit in the boat. Then we see the squid move, we jump in the water. By the time we come out we get a sack full. We used to throw em in the washing machine to make em... Oh yeah, to make em soft. So much squid, not one or two. Oh yeah to upa upa, pound with hand, eh [laughs]. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1331 HiPae74-121003

Oh that s too much work [chuckles]. Yes, my brother-in-law was a fisherman. So is that how you folks...because you knew Blackie Yanagihara, and your brother-in-law and his name...? Keichi Okihiro. Describes entry into MLkapu fishponds, and restoration and modification of the ponds in the 1950s: You folks formed a relationship with Yanagihara? Yes, yes. About when was that, and what did you do? This is what you call, oh... [thinking of when it started] MH: Late 50s. Yes. We know Blackie before the war, but this pond thing [at MLkapu] was after the war. MH: Yes, after the war. Fifty. So about 1950 is when you went to the pond? No, about a few years later, maybe about three or four years. So was the Korean war going on at that time, or just pau, you think when you went to the fishpond? Ahh, I wouldn t remember the Korean War. Maybe was going on yet. Now what we d like to do...i m going to fold this map up again, and we re also working with another map that I may refer to. It s a Marine Corps Base Hawaii map of the fishponds. What I d like to do for right now is...this map 2043, it was originally done in 1882, Chaney redrew it in 1916. This map shows you MLkapu, we were talking about Coconut Island over Here. Yes. You remember the papa, the reef, yeah, came all along here... Yes, yes. Shallow, there was a cove like in MLkapu here. Yes. And the fishponds, what did you call the fishponds, did you have the Hawaiian name? No [chuckles], I can t remember. Had a name on the fishpond but we didn t bother. You just called it... MLkapu fishpond. That s what we called it. Now one of the things that s interesting, you see this fishpond wall that s marked in the map here? Uh-hmm. Who did Blackie Yanagihara lease the fishpond from, do you remember? I think it was from the base. He knew somebody on the base. That s right, Castle was pau all ready. Henry at one time took care of Castle s leases... Volume II Oral History Interviews 1332 HiPae74-121003

Oh yes, yes, he was all pau. He was pau with this area here? Yes. So you think it was the military. So we re talking by 1955? Oh yes, by 1955 we had it. MH: After that, I think so. I remember was about three or four years, maybe more. But someplace around there anyway. Okay. Now you had mentioned earlier before we started recording, that we were looking at maybe 1960. That you were still working, or that you were working the pond in 1960? MH: I know for a fact 1960, because I had surgery at that time. Yes, 1960 we were still there yet. Okay. So I think we got the pond...let s see 60? About 55, 56 I think. So was around there, I m pretty sure. Now I kind of recall. Good, What did the pond...this map is 1916, did the pond look...if you recall, was it pretty much wide open? And its Hawaiian name is Nu upia. Was it one pond wall on the Kne ohe Bay side, a long stretch of pond? Cause this road, there was a road here, yeah, by that time? Oh yes, this went into the base. The older road came across over here like that [pointing to Kailua Bay side]. Yes, alongside the rough ocean. There was one road...see get housing over here, this is Aikahi. Right. There was a road, and I m going to show you a photograph, this photograph is 1924 [Army Air Corps October 1924]. And you see there s an old road across here. And you see that little channel, the white... Yes, that used to be that...the water used to disturb the road all the time. Sometimes you couldn t go through. Okay, a number of people remember that sometimes they would wait for the wave before they would come across. Yes, yes. See this wall here in the photograph? Yes. That s this pond. This is where the road cuts across for the old Marine Base Entrance, MLkapu Boulevard. Yes, yes. Now, when you were working Nu upia fishpond, MLkapu fishpond... Yes. Was there a wall across this area here, or was it wide open, like in 1916 [pointing to the Chaney map]? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1333 HiPae74-121003

You mean the wall here? Yes. The wall here, wasn t here. It was all mudflat. What we re trying to understand a little bit is, maybe what happened? Did you folks build some walls? Yes, well you see, we had the crane. We started from the what you call, the slope of that Kokokahi Road going, the old road, the land sloping to the pond [now Kne ohe Bay Drive]. Okay So we come in here, maybe about a hundred feet, and then from here we drove all... Yes this is the water, here, this is the road, and then we come all the way in. All the way in here and that main highway, Kokokahi Road used to be up here. The land comes down to the fishpond, comes right to the fishpond. From there, we had a house I think someplace around here. So you think you had a house about in here? Yes, where my brother-in-law used to...some nights he used to sleep there, all depends on when the fish come. Then someplace around here, from here on, the fishpond, we had a crane with a dragline, and we made the road from here on. So you widened the fishpond wall? Yes, yes. And made a road over here? Yes. And where is the rubbish pile here now. Right here is the place where the rubbish dump. Okay, right here. So we ended up, we ended up someplace around here. And used to be an open water, water that comes into that pond here. And there was open water here, and this wall, part of em was in. We fixed all that wall. So part of this was existing, but you fixed it. Yes, I think this is the one here. But you fixed it? Yes. So there was a smaller pond area here? Right, right. And there s a [sluice] gate over here. We made a gate here. You made a gate on this wall here? Yes. And then, we used to drive all the fish in from here, into this gate. Into this pond. Aha, so was this a stocking or holding pond? Yes, yes. So this was connected to this other gate too. The young fish were plentiful at that time and they were easily herded into the pond gate. The fish fry would naturally come towards that area of the pond. Keichi Okihiro and I would walk on the reef flats herding the fish with nets towards the gate entrance. So there was a gate here, and it also connected to the larger pond? Yes, right. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1334 HiPae74-121003

So there was a gate there also, a fishpond gate? Yes, yes we made a gate. So it ran through here, through this channel, but it fed into this pond here? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah... So, was there a wall here in your time? Yes, this wall was here, we repaired it, made it good. So we could stock the fish. Was there a [sluice] gate between? Yes, there was a gate there too, but we fixed it all up. This is where there are some gates also, between Halekou pond and the big Nu upia pond, yeah.? Yes. There are some gates, one, two... Okay. What kind of [sluice] gate system did you use to keep fish in or out like that? We had all fixed with board and about a quarter inch mesh eye, small eye net, so the little fish can not go in or out... Yes, about a quarter inch, about oh, maybe wider than this [gesturing]. A little wider than this [the table]. So maybe about three something feet wide? Yes, wide. And we had just like a trap you know on that gate, a funnel type about ten inches big, oh maybe about a foot and a half long. And you know on the end, we had a flip cover, when the tide from the big ocean goes in here, the flip cover opens up and the little fish...sometimes, the one that comes here, goes in by itself. And when the tide quit, [it d] flip closed by itself. Hmm, so the fish couldn t get out. Yes. And so this was like a funnel that you had in the gate? On the gate here. On the gate. Okay, how about this area here? This division, see, they ve numbered these ponds now, one, two, three, and four? Umm. Was there a wall, do remember across this area? No. This had no wall across there. Oh maybe had before. A little island? All marsh land, all those marsh lands. And curious about this marshy area here, it looks like it s been cut up. This was all that marshland, that seaweed, that kind of ah... Succulent? Yes. &kulikuli? &kulikuli, yeah you squeeze em all. Down here was most of that. And in here, was further up below the farm land [on the Aikahi side] had a lot of kiawe Volume II Oral History Interviews 1335 HiPae74-121003

MH: DD: DD: How were the fish, what kind of fish were you taking care of in here? Oh, the milkfish they call that, a awa and the awa. Which one is bigger? Well the a awa is the longer one, it s round and long. The awa aua is something like, look like aku you know, more round and sharp. And the big one comes about, in the pond, say about 3-4 pounds, but out in the ocean, maybe 10-15 pounds. The long one, comes about that big too, but the a awa, long. And how is the fish, good? They use to make fish cake. The Chinese love that. That a awa, the round one make good soup. The long one, we used to send to the market, people make fish cake. Which market, do you remember which market? The a awa? Was Otani, Otani s...? Yes, yes. Were they the primary market, was Blackie s family... No, no, well he had the market, but when they take the fish, they get em to the auction. So he gave em to the auctioneer and sell em all there. At Otani s? No, no, the auction was a separate area, yeah? Yes, yes. Near the fish market. Otani had almost the whole big block, but all gone now. So the upper fish market, they still have someplace in there. I used to do fishes in there. I don t know where now, Kekaulike Street. Yes, someplace in there. Oh, they get all kind of fish, all the fishermen bring all the fish, all kind. How was the water in the pond? The water was good, clean. Good, clear water, you could... Did you go on boat or did you just stay around the edges? The pond wasn t that deep you know. Well the mud was about...some place about one foot of mud. But, as you come down toward the ocean side, you know, it s more coral. You get really little mud, not too much. So you can walk on it easy. But, you get further in the mud gets higher, hard to walk. So the water was about how deep would you say? Oh, on the low tide, maybe about a foot or a little over, but the high tide when the water comes up, you have better than two feet. Two feet water. But in the shallow area, you don t have that much alongside the land already. Maybe it s about 6-8 inches all along there. Did the fish need a certain kind of water mix? Was there some fresh water, salt...? Well, see the food the fish get is alongside the bank of the land. Primarily on the...? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1336 HiPae74-121003

On the shallow side. That s where they feed on, on this side here [pointing on the map]. Did you notice...you have ponds here in your yard, there s an area where fresh water is ejecting out. Was there any fresh water that you saw welling out? Not in that pond, not in that pond. Because I don t think have...we looked around, but I don t think they have fresh water. Hmm Now, I d like to ask, if I could, just to make sure I ve got an understanding here. Where was...on the Kne ohe Bay side of this wall here, okay, so this is the fishpond? Yes. Now you widened this wall. Yes, this one to here. So that you could make...drive across. Uh-hmm. Where was the main [sluice] fed into this fishpond here. Well, at the time that we put the gate over here, it was all broken, no more gate. Ah-ha, the whole wall? Yes, no more. The whole wall. Yes, well maybe had little rocks and things, but the water was just going in and out, in and out. So from the Kokokahi Road side, out towards the dump and game farm side, the wall was pretty much broken up? Yes, all broken down, and we rebuilt it. So you rebuilt this section of wall. Yes. And put in one new gate or... Yes, we put in several gates. We put a new one here, and the ones inside here. I think about three gates we put in. About three gates. Okay, so but along this entire extent facing the bay, there was no gate over here. No gate, just one gate, we put in, one gate. And so that one gate was close to the dump site? Yes, right there. And that fed water into the pond... Yes, all this pond here. And then you had a gate here, here, and the other gate Yes, and from the rough ocean, the water came in. And so water in here, you had a gate, there is evidence of two gates...that you can see evidence of, and now it may be earlier than yours... Yes, earlier. Then there s two gates over here. These gates were the primary gates that you used? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1337 HiPae74-121003

Yes [hesitates, clarifies] right up in here [close to the dump site]. Discusses stocking the fishponds: Did you folks have to go out and stock fish, or did you just let the fish come in? Oh yeah, right where the rubbish you know, land fill; the wide mud flat over there. When there was a little...oh you could see them come in by the hundreds and hundreds. And we d just open the gate, and we go with the small net and just squeeze em in. Oh, so a group of you...you were saying earlier that maybe three or so? Yes, maybe two or three people would go. High tide with the water coming in? Yes the high tide, you gotta go with the high tide. When the water is flowing into the pond walls? Yes, that s when all the little fish come in. So you never needed to go out into the bay and gather...? No, no. Never did. And had the mullet, but the two was the most, was the a awa and awa. The two was the main ones that grows over there. Fast, fast growing. DD: Did you see the barracuda, k k? Barracuda, yeah they come every now and then, the little guys and they grow up in the pond. Used to get guys come in and go [gestures]. Oh reel. Yes reel. Oh those guys, yeah, if you don t get rid of them, you won t get the small ones. They eat em all up [chuckles]. But they re good eating you know. Yes, good meat. Were there eels in the ponds also, do you remember? Oh yeah, eels, balloon fish, yeah. And had big crabs too. Samoan crab, Samoan crab, yeah. After we close everything [the walls] up, they start breeding in there. Before, they go in and out. So when you repaired this wall, some were trapped inside? Oh yeah. How about, were the eels...as a fishpond keeper, did you consider any of these fish, eel, crabs a problem, or...? No, eel wasn t a problem. The crab, the barracuda. We had balloon fishes, but they don t make trouble. The balloon fishes eat crab or shellfish. So people used to come, that balloon fish a delicacy. Worth a lot of money too, some guys used to come, used to go DD: What about the tilapia, do you remember the tilapia being that abundant? Introduction of tilapia to Kne ohe Bay: No, never one tilapia was there when we were there. They migrated all the was from where Henry Wong s house is, all the way to where his pond is [at] Waikalua. Yes, that s where the tilapia started. Fresh water. DD: From where? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1338 HiPae74-121003

MH: MH: MH: MH: Waikalua side. Waikalua, that s where the river stream ends up in the ocean. From there, it started, it wasn t bad. It came in, came in, and then all the way, I think we had Henry Wong, before Henry Wong, where my nephew lives [along the Mikiola fishpond], alongside the...his place, that s the... You mean Mike [Okihiro]? Yes Mike. Yes, Mike s place, tilapia all... You know where Mike lives eh? Yes, my father is across the street from Mike. Yes, was all clear, not one tilapia! You can find a lot of shrimp, you can find a lot of baby mullet... Didn t they bring that in? They brought it in. What it is, you know the State, the State Hospital, cause they had nice streambed and watercress patches, so they brought it there. From there on, the water comes to the ocean. So all them migrated. Now [laughs]... All over, eh? Before I came here, where my sister lives, I used to have a glass bottom boat parked over there all the time. We used to go fishing all the time, throw net, and then...the boat has no more top on it... Had a long kerosene torch and a five gallon tank, kerosene, and we go out. Two or three people go out, one handle the boat, one handle the tank, and handle the net. The tilapia was in that ocean. I used to catch them in the ocean, they was about this big. Hmm, 12 inches or so? About this big, about this wide. Hand wide. I brought em home one time, they good to eat. Nothing wrong. Big bones, more big bone than fish in the ocean, not fine bone. Yes, they re good to eat. But the ones inside [the MLkapu ponds], I think they adapted to the salt water now. So, I think the meat is almost the same. The people here... The Filipinos. The Filipinos, when I first came here... Five dollars a pound. They have all the black one... They prefer the black, yeah. I was getting rid of them when I was building all the pond, so I met this guy up in the...he had a little store in Phoa, a food stand, so I asked him if he take tilapia, and he said Oh yes. Every Friday when we used to go to the market and come back, I used to subtract... I had about five gallons, sometimes more tilapia. I used to take it to him. Now, I can not because I feed em all to [laughs] You feed em to your [c. 20 pet ulua], but this is the golden tilapia, yeah, that you grow in your pond now. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1339 HiPae74-121003

Yes. He wants them, but I told him I m sorry [chuckles]. You have in your ponds, there s sort of three large pond enclosure you have in your... Yes about three, yeah. The outer pond you have about six big ulua? Yes I have about six big ones and about 13 or 14 of those [juvenile ulua], I d say about a couple of dozen mix up. Yes, beautiful. they re beautiful Over in the MLkapu fishponds, never have limu, or had? No, no, never have limu. Maybe too much salt water. For that kind of activity, and in some cases, not enough agitation also. Well could be, yeah. Because I know along this side, some of the old families talk about gathering limu, as well as along these areas where you have more agitation [the Kailua Bay and outer Kne ohe Bay sides of the peninsula]. Yes, yes, outside. Over there, you have more stimulation of the bay, Kokokahi side and He eia, and you sister s fishpond side. Yes, oh we used to have a big bed over there. Nobody have to worry, you want, you just go out. I brought some here, but [pause]. Never grow? No, can not. It may be too warm, may the water is too warm too. Yes, it s warm too. Cause this water here is being fed by warm water coming out from the lava tubes. Yes, from the mountains right. Yes, I tried lobster, I tried kumu, all those, squid. Yes, I think too warm. Can not. Harvesting fish from the MLkapu ponds; use of m k h (sluice gates): DD: How did you harvest the fish? The harvesting, see the gate you saw over there. See, we get two gates, one here, one front and one back. Across the width of the wall? Yes, one in the inside, and one on the outside. So when we...like harvest the fish, we have fee gate. You gotta watch for the tide. When the tide comes up, maybe early in the morning or early in the night, whatever. Then when the tide comes in, we let the gate out and let the water come in. And then when the tide is all pack, we close it for a little while you know. Then before the tide moves out, what ever you want, one or two, but you gotta be there [slaps hands], you gotta watch, because when the tide keep on going, you can see the fish going into the trap. They come inside, they want to get out to the blue ocean, eh. So there was a screen wire, swimming up and down...so when the tide just about stop, you close the gate. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1340 HiPae74-121003

DD: How many people did you need to do that? Only one. Yes, cause you re operating gates. Now you had said there were three gates, and I want to understand. This is the fishpond wall here. Here s the gate that s on the pond side. Yes, yes. Here s the ocean gate. Yes. Was there another gate in between that you kept, or...? Yes, they have one more gate, but we didn t catch fish in there. It s just a gate. So you would...to get fish in on the ocean side, we open this gate... Yes, yes. High tide, both gates open. Yes. Now, when you re catching fish, they re stocking up in this place here trying to get out to the ocean side gate? Yes, yes. So you just open... Even the...but the little guys, once they get inside, they won t try to get out. Most of them, they out in the shallow. They stick around where the food. That s where they go. Very seldom they come out to the deep. All the good size ones, maybe a little over a pound. Uh-hmm, so you re harvesting, so one person is harvesting the fish in between the gates on the wall. Yes, inside the gates. Yes that s all, maybe sometimes, the fish is plentiful in there, you work this gate, or you work this gate. The different gates on the ponds, I see. About three gates I think we have Discusses the value of the MLkapu fishponds: If you can develop this, boy it s a nice fishpond. Beautiful fishpond, there s no more like that in the whole island. No more. DD: Why do you say that? That s the best fishpond, nobody knows, but for raise fish, and you don t have to work hard for put the fish in here. Easy! All fishpond like that He eia fishpond, they gotta go out and look around for fish, catch with the net, put em in the boat, put em in the car, and bring em. By the time they come back, maybe about one-fourth, a third all wasted, yeah. Hard. Uh-hmm, so because of the natural ocean here...? Yes. The fish were attracted into this... Yes, this was the best fishpond. Anybody can develop this, maybe some day, you can be a millionaire. Oh yes, yes. You know with the fish price now, by golly. you don t have to worry about fish, the fish just spawn in here, spawn in this water, all along here [pointing to the former main pond gate described earlier], all come around here. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1341 HiPae74-121003

DD: Would the nehu go in there? The nehu? The nehu, they won t go too far in. We used to do a lot of nehu fishing, catching where Henry Wong house is. Yes, yes, a little further over here. Yes, that side. There s no more that kind of fishing, like the maka, used to be. You know the little guys, you could catch by the big chest before. For the nehu, about one hour like that, then go home, clean yourself up. Then you go fishing for the day, oh! That thing used to bite. You know on the line, we get three hooks, and three [fish] come up. For the maka? Yes, maka, pelu, and halal. Yes, used to be, I don t know now [chuckles] And you see this point? Recalls fishes of the reef system; noted that after dredging the bay, it was never the same: KP au [Pyramid Rock]. You come here, come here and it s right in there. Well this is where, right outside, the coral reef came right up to the land over here. Right up, and from here, people used to come with the car, come up park around and they walk down. The squid used to be really plentiful, oh man. And you could...we used to lay that fish trap, there s a lot of...oh, in the flat area, there s a lot of crevices and they used to set the trap in there. Oh [with emphasis] all kind km, moana. Oh yes. Yes, there s a whole lot of fish in there, but when they dredged here, everything went. Hmm. Did you ever talk; did you ever see any old Hawaiian fisher-people, fishermen or anybody, go out talk story with anybody? No, not the people in there, the only guy I know was Davis. George? Yes, but they had a house in here [pointing to the Davis MLkapu home]. Yes, here s Davis Point here. Yes, I think here. And so had the pier that ran off here. Yes, had the pier. We used to come with the boat to the pier. And so you knew George Davis? Yes. And Aunty Minnie, you were saying that...and you knew William Kalani them, yeah? MH: Uh-hmm. Did you...by chance, and I know like this is how many years ago? But, did you ever hear them talk story about MLkapu or fishing, or things that you remember? MH: Not that I remember. Because before, those people, there were no more road, no road going toward this place. The only way they could come was by boat. That s the old people. Do you remember the families going out summer time? Oh yes, yes, by boat! And we used to go with the boat to the pier here, yeah. Volume II Oral History Interviews 1342 HiPae74-121003

MH: MH: Did you ever see families like...we spoke with some of the families and other people remember that when they were children, or their parents tell as children that families would often go out for the whole summer at MLkapu. Did you ever hear anything about that? And they would go fish, gather salt and stuff. Oh yeah, the Davis here, George Davis here used to tell us that. He used to tell us all the story Well, I m 81 years old, so maybe a little bit I could remember. Yes, that s wonderful. And you know, that you are willing to share your time and that you might be able... they re able to get something together for you folks to come down. Oh yes. If you think it is important, and if you think that I could help...i don t think so. Well you see, and that s it, you made an important statement about the value of these fishponds earlier. Could you restate how you feel about these ponds? Good... Oh, I d like to have em back any time. Why you think we came here [Kapoho, Puna] look around like this [referring to his own fishponds he made in the area around his home]. It s a lot of fun. Yes. And today, that pond, if you have em today, I m not saying out of my mouth, but, you can make a lot of money. Just leave em that pond. Easy, easy. People don t know it. People who never go fishpond, they don t know it. It s the best place in the bay over there. You can not have any more better place than that.. Have all kind of ponds, I went to every pond, all over this side, the windward side. Kne ohe, Kahalu u... Yes, even Kahuku. Not like that, [MLkapu], that s the best. The way you could gather everything so easy. And, it s not hard to restore all that. Yes, even they tell you couldn t, but you know, hard work... Take hard work, but that s how. Oh yes. You know the fish, once you get them in, while you working, you know a lot of places, they keep away from you. Yes we did put em in, we got to do a lot of work. Oki was a very good man, a nice man Volume II Oral History Interviews 1343 HiPae74-121003