Joseph Haia (with Karmen Haia) and Edith Kenoi /ina Auld MIkapu and K/ne ohe Bay Fisheries March 8, and April 4, 1995 with Kep/ Maly (KPA Photo No. JH030895) Joseph Haia (Uncle Kepa) was born in Honolulu, on August 1, 1920. His father was Moses Haia, originally of Lhain, Maui, and his mother was Sarah Ko olau, originally of North Kohala, Hawai i. Uncle Kepa was one of 26 children. Moses Haia was in construction, and in 1934, he went to work on the construction of the Pan American Radio facilities which were being built on the crest of the He eia dune on the MLkapu Peninsula. Falling in love with the peninsula, Moses Haia moved his family to the ili of MLkapu, where they lived on the western, shoreward slopes of Pali-kilo (see Mokapu Land Court Application 1015, Lot #55). The Haias lived at MLkapu between the years of 1934-1941. The Haia family (including relatives of the Keahi and Kah ulelio lines) were noted fishermen in the Lhain region of Maui, and continued their fishing customs while in residence in the MLkapu- Kne ohe fisheries. Uncle Kepa, shares his recollections of fishing, and the practices handed down to him from his elders. Uncle Kepa Haia granted his personal release of the interview records to Maly on April 16, 1995. As a youth, taught to respect the fishery rights of others, and not to over take: You know the old timers, Mr. Lemon. Lemon had a sort of a squidding rights, that s what he had. That s what they told us, he had the squidding rights in that area. So you folks couldn t go get he e without permission? Did you go talk to him first or you just kind of malu underneath? No, no. We didn t over pick. If you had a grandfather like I did, you don t overdo things. I learned one time, I went out, my neighbor and I went out to dive for squid. What area did you dive for squid? All in this area, all on this reef. That s Kekepa? Yes, ah Turtle Back. We were back all this area here, fishing area. Anyway, I picked up some squid and coming back I seen this water rippling, went home get throw nets. We caught so much fish that day, you know that oama; came home, told my grandfather I going give the neighbors. He said no. Cause had so much you stay there and start cleaning em [chuckling]. And I cleaned from 9:00 in the morning to 7:00 at night. Never Volume II Oral History Interviews 1298 HiPae74-121003
did stop. And I learned when he told me, When you get something you make use of all of it. And he wouldn t let me go. I had to stay there and clean fish and he wouldn t let me go give the neighbors. That s how we learned, Don t over do it. Did your grandpa... You know K ula [make offerings]? Yes, I did. Did your grandpa, sort of give back to the ocean. Did he observe... You see, here s another thing you can remember, he didn t speak English. He only could speak Hawaiian. You talking about Tt Ko olau? Yes, he only spoke Hawaiian, but you could see he was all fair. He and Tutu Leeloy. You remember Tutu Leeloy Yes. He wala au all in Hawaiian, and children should be seen and not heard. He taught us how to take care the ah... You only gather what you can and not... Or what you need. But what he s talking about is giving you know...during the old days they used to have a shrine, whatever catch you catch, you give to the shrine. In other words like H awi ia... Ae, h awi i ke K ula. Did tutu still do that when you were... Well, every once in a while he would do it. Was there a special...and this is very important because of, those are special places to your kpuna, to you tt them. Did tt have a special place where he maybe set the fish out? No, no. He would be right in the, in our property. Right in front of your folks property? And this was your house, yeah, here? Right on the coast... Yes Did you folks salt and dry fish out here also [pointing to the map and their MLkapu house site]? Did you bring salt or did you gather salt? No, we brought salt in. You brought it in. Like I said, when we first moved in, we had to haul our own water down. Every time we went in we would have barrels of water going in with us. But it was really nice place... [W]hen I first moved there George [Davis] was the only one that lived there and was about our age. So by going fishing I used to meet him out there, squidding and we became friends. He was older than I, you say he s 82. I m 74. So we just about them days we about the same age. We used to go from MLkapu here [pointing to Davis Point] to Kne ohe here, to go to the movies. We didn t have any lights here. We would go around... Coconut Island. We d come here, come in between the reefs, this was the bad one. This was a bad reef Volume II Oral History Interviews 1299 HiPae74-121003
Remembers salt flats, fishponds and oyster beds (oysters brought from Japan): [pointing to the MLkapu flats] So the road came in, like you were saying earlier around, did you, this was a loko pa akai...did you... Yes, yes, this was called a flat, it was something like down here, that air strip, temporary strip, was coral [pointing towards the low flat lands between MLkapu-Heleloa]. And the water would dry there and it would get salt. Did people go gather salt. I don t know, not during our time. Not during your time. How about the fishponds? Earlier, I think before we, at the beginning you were mentioning, was someone sort of using these fishponds. Like did you folks ever get anything? Well no. The only thing, this [Territorial] Game Farm [Executive Order 112, October 17, 1921], gee, I really don t remember exactly the year but they started raising oysters out here you know, Japanese oysters. And oh shucks, there was a pier that went out from here...the Wilson Pier, that s the Wilson Pier [points on map]. About that area? Yes, just about this area. That s where just about where that road going into the base now, that s just about where that Wilson Pier was. You know where H-3 now goes come down to go in. I just off on the mauka side of that road used to have Wilson Pier, the old pier. Just like the Hanalei, Hanalei s pier, just like that. So that was along the edge of...kind of...did you see any of the fishpond walls or anything out here? Yes, the fishponds were still good then. No one was taking care that you saw, no old Chinese man or anybody? Not that we knew of, no Man known as family aumakua; kpuna of Lhain fished for pelu with the man: How about man, did you ever talk to...did you see man or anything? Yes, once in a while, most of the time you see em in here, by Pyramid Rock. So did tt ever talk to you about the man, about the sharks. I tell you what, on my father s side it says that, aumakua on my father s side the man. He...Maui, Lhain, uncle, my father s sister married that pelu fisherman. We call him Jacob [Keahi],..he s more or less our fisherman. I seen him go out, seen the man chase the pelu. The man would show him. He would follow and the man would start circling, start throwing the bait. Oh he d be on his canoe, follow the man out. All the old timers...in Lhain...the pelu fishermen... Keahi, Jacob Keahi. He s from Moloka i. Yes, we have a lot of family in Maui. I ve seen my cousin swimming and the shark was right back of her and she keep swimming, Cousin Emma. She d swim, she wasn t afraid of the sharks Volume II Oral History Interviews 1300 HiPae74-121003
Fishery resources on the papa between MLkapu and Kekepa; taught not to be greedy when fishing or collecting other resources: This is the reef area? Here s Kekepa, like you said, the Turtle Rock, so that s the reef. And so you folks would get he e and fish, go fish inside here. But you said the uhu was really big up here. Big, big, big......the Hawaiian way was always you only take what you gonna use. That s why we used to have a lot of limu, used to have a lot of fish, pihi because the families used to go and just take what they need. Don t be greedy, even on the outer islands Did you ever get fish out of the pond here. You ever saw mullet or anything Never. You never did. That s enough from out there [pointing to the ocean]. Yes, ono kind, yeah. My brother and I we had a spot out there... Friday nights. I was going to high school then. Just roll up our pants and set the net. There was sand, a sand channel, wasn t too wide. Set the net there and the next morning pick up, when we d pick up the awa kalamoho, deep sea awa... So awa kalamoho? Yes. Some old timers ask us where we picked that up, and we showed em. It s all shallow water. How can you catch that inside there? And one guy came up and he said, Oh I know what it is. This reef, this reef here there was one channel, deep channel. The fish would come through, the fish would come through there...and then, I don t know how, some way in there they came in. And anyway, they went through this sand channel to get into Kne ohe Bay. Awa, this kind size [gestures, the length of your arm]. Three feet, better than that. That s what this one guy said. Oh that s awa kalamoho, that s from the deep sea. So he said this comes from the deep sea and come in for spawn and then go back out. My mother used to get mad with me. I wouldn t even change pants, just get home from school, roll up the pants and go out there and put the net out and then go home. You know, put it out before it gets dark. And was just, I say the channel wouldn t be wider from here to the parlor... Fifty [feet] maybe, and we d hit them every time. I think that s why that s what it is. I think they come through that channel because that s the only deep channel with deep water. Cause the other channel inland to get into Kne ohe goes over here, the other side and then you come down Joseph Kepa Haia April 4, 1995 with Kep/ Maly Kekepa was an important fishing ground and fishery marker: You know uncle, while you were fishing, you know how sometimes when you go out ocean and you look at the land here and here and how you come and you know where your fishing spot is. Was there any place on MLkapu that you kind of used as a place to spot or mark your fishing or as a land...? This was a prime one [pointing to Kekepa]. This is prime and then, well like I said, we look at Kalihi valley... It s something like this you know. And then over here gets high over here gets high, you only get the glare here. So while we out here fishing, you know where the Turtle Back is, then we site, site for that hill eh. But this was back a long time when we Volume II Oral History Interviews 1301 HiPae74-121003
brought in... When Hawaiian Dredging brought in a second dredge. They had me go out there and meet the tug and bring them through the channel. Usually they going way [to] the PkR-ppale [Mokoli i Island] and come around but the Captain, Edith s Uncle, Chief Captain, told me you go out there and meet the tug and bring them in. It s trick, it was trick to come in here, this channel. You couldn t come in straight. You go down and then, you more surf it in and then come this way. Skirt around eh? Recalls beds of stone on the papa, around which mullet and he e were caught; area now buried under MCBH outer runway: And then go back in. A lot of Sampans got hit on the reef and all that. But you know, I give George Davis credit for teaching me all those things when we go out fishing. That was a nice papa inside there, two of them. All rocks about this size. And that s were the mullet used to...choke mullet. That s about rocks, you know hand size kind rocks, uh huh. Wasn t coral, was just rock, rock. Two beds. So you think they were built up? No, I don t know maybe it was just current, just brought up cause they all small size. And the rocks built up you said sort of in two beds though, yeah? Yes, with the channel in between. George Davis and I used to... it was mullet season we d be out there, go for squidding. Was that area fronting your house side or... No, was way down here. More down. In this area here. Ah so buried maybe now cause the land had extended out here, yeah? Oh they covered it. They covered it, okay. That s where this air strip goes out this way now. That s right the section goes out there. The last air strip they built covered all that. Filled a lot of land. You know when they were building, did you build any of the hangars or fill the land up there You aloha MLkapu? Yes, I do... I found out a lot of names of people who were living there before. There s a Mr. Lemon. Jack Lemon. Jack, yes, yes. That was Chaney s Uncle. Yes, so Jack Lemon. And somehow he, what I understand is that ah... Jack Lemon had the he e konohiki rights. You remember that? Yes. So people had to go ask him before they could take he e or... Volume II Oral History Interviews 1302 HiPae74-121003
No. He knew we lived there. Oh, if you lived there it was okay? Yes. What did he do if strangers came in? Well if boat come in and he d go out. Like us, he d see us swimming out, he d know we were tight there. Old man Lemon... He was just, he lived just about here. Oh. So up on the slope. So it was above you, yeah? Well no, he was right on the beach too. But his lot is up the hill so you could be sitting up on the hill. KH: And he watching everybody. Oh he was nice Fisherman spotted mullet and other fish from atop Pali Kilo: You know when I was with Uncle George last Friday, I went over talk story with them, he remembered. He said as a kid, remember we said the name of this cliff they called Pali-kilo? And kilo like for i a, yeah, spot fish. As a kid that s what he said. He said as a child they would take him up there. He would stand on top the hill and look down and tell them where to go lay net. Well like I say, he and I were...you know especially ah, mullet season, gotta be September, around there. He and I... we d just wait. We could see the water rippling. Ai! The mullet down there. Off we go [laughs]. Off you go. You know you were talking about these stone mounds [on the papa between Davis Point and Sumner Cove] that were down here and small stones... About this kind size. Ulumaika size, okay, now the reason I m curious if you think about it, if those were made by people or natural. Well I don t know, I wouldn t know. I m curious, did you ever hear your papa them or somebody talk. You know, there s a thing called umu. Umu were mounds of stone that they would make in the water as a protect place for fish to come and feed like that. Maybe that was it. There s two see. There s two of them, that s why I m curious. Big one. That would be about... The length of this house. You mean this room here. No, no, the whole house. KH: The whole thing. So we re looking from the garage here, 70 feet, 50 feet? Sixty-seventy feet. KH: Wow, it s a big one. Sixty-seventy feet, okay. And all small stones? Volume II Oral History Interviews 1303 HiPae74-121003
All small stones. And not coral, just the loose kind... Not coral. Stone. But to the best of your memory, the runway...the new... how they filled in the land. They came out here like that, yeah? Well they, they started pumping from here into here, start covering them and all that. So this is all buried. So a lot of your he e ground and stuff...? All gone! [picks up a stone] It was like this. So stones are basically hand to hand size. All just piled up. It s like the wall that you were talking about that ran from this side out towards Moku Manu. Yes, Moku Manu. And you had said you even thought...they...some old guys told you ran... That the wall goes out there, goes to[wards] Moloka i, facing Moloka i. Towards it facing. Like you know... Waters around MLkapu noted for uhu: But I, I didn t go out that far. I stayed right in here. Uhu. Uhu so big, yeah? Yes, uhu. It s good them days. And all built up, mounded up one line. Yes, it s just like, just like rock wall you know, stone wall. KH: Somebody did it. Yes, hard work. Could have been one time this was all land the beach, and then it sank. Say this crater was operating and it was land and vibrating....so you folks didn t go in the fishponds, is that right? No, couldn t go cause had the CC Camp and all that in there. Did George Davis tell you about picking up oysters in there [laughs]. You guys underwater, yeah, sneak go in or something? Yes, yes, scoop nets. But like this people took care. Oh we know these two guys. You guys only going take one, two scoop and he goes home. KH: Just take enough for you to use Volume II Oral History Interviews 1304 HiPae74-121003