R: Henry J. Dornbos that was also owned by VerDuin Brothers.

DB14057 DPACASS067A I:..commercial fishing was an occupation of considerable importance to this community. According to Leo Lilly s account, fishing had become notable here as early as 1856. In 1857, there were 20 boats and 160 men engaged with 500 barrels considered a good catch per boat, per season bringing at that time, $9 a barrel. In 1884, steam tugs were in use along with a large number of small sailboats making this port one of the most extensive fishing stations in Michigan. The catch included, among others, whitefish, trout, pickerel and herring. At that time, the huts of the fishermen clustered together on the right bank of Grand River, comprised a small village across the river from the main part of Grand Haven. I feel especially fortunate to present as our guest today a member of our historical society who has had many years experience as a professional fisherman in crews of tugs in the fishing fleet out of this port in the early part of this century. I am sure he is well known to many of you. Our good friend, Neil VerHoeks. Now, Mr. VerHoeks, will you tell us how did you happen to become a fisherman or get into the fishing business? R: Well, I was born in Grand Haven, September 17, 1893. My father was a commercial fisherman as was my other brothers; they were John, Tony, Leonard, Neil and Henry. When you start fishing, you have to be a net packer before you started working on the tug. I was about 17 when I started on the tugs, the C. J. Bos, owned by William VerDuin and the H. J. Dornbos. Their fish rig was across the river from the government pond. The largest haul of trout we brought in was I: Well now, could you name any of the other tugs in the fishing fleet in those days? You mentioned the Bos and who did you say owned the Bos, the C. J. Bos. R: Captain William VerDuin. I: VerDuin and then the other one was the Henry J. Dornbos? R: Henry J. Dornbos that was also owned by VerDuin Brothers. I: Oh, it wasn t a Dornbos boat then. R: Oh, no. I: I see. R: That was just the name on it, Henry J. He named it after Henry J. Dornbos, the one that owned the fishery, H. J. Dornbos Brothers, they owned the Dornbos. It went under that name. I: I see, because he had the smoked fish industry, is that it?

R: He had the smoked fish industry. I: But then he didn t own any fish tugs? R: No he didn t own any fish tugs. I: Well, I m glad to get that straight, because I always supposed if he had a fishing fleet, so that s wrong. Well now, then that takes care of two and they both were owned by VerDuins, right? R: Yes. I: Now can you name some of the other tugs in the fishing fleet in those days, in your day? R: Yes I can. Their fish rig was across the river from the government pond and I said the largest trout was 8,000 pounds and we sold them to Dornbos Brothers Fish House, at that time for 6 cents a pound. There were other boats here at that time, there was a tug Auger, owned by the A. J. Fisher. I: Now who was this A. J. Fisher? Would that be R: That would be, I just couldn t I: Would that be a father of Abe and Nelson. R: That would be a father of Abe Fisher and Nelson Fisher. I: And Ray Fisher and the sisters. R: Ray Fisher that would be the father. I: So he had the Auger. R: He had the Auger, uh-huh. And then there was a tug Meister, owned by VanZanten and Fisher. I: The ones that had the grocery store would that be, VanZanten? R: One of them. Yes. I: Oh, uh-huh. R: And the tug Anna owned by, it was also owned by VanZanten and Fisher. I: They had two tugs then. 2

R: They had two tugs. I: The Meister and the Anna. R: And the Anna, yes ma am. Then there was the Frank Edwards, she came from out of the city. Now I don t know just where she came from, but that was the Frank Edwards. Then there was the tug H. J. Dornbos, she was the king of the fleet. I: Now, what do you mean by the king of the fleet? R: Well, she was a steel tug and she was the largest tug. She was 75 foot long and she could beat anybody on the river. I: In speed, you mean? R: In speed and breaking ice. I: Oh, oh. R: She was the best. I: This is before we had the Coast Guard ice breaker iceboats, huh? R: Yes, uh-huh. Yes, ma am. I: Oh, well now you said she was 75 feet long. What was the average tug? Were they a lot smaller? R: Well, see 75 feet, now she had to be under inspection. At 75 feet you have, the government, they had to be inspected. I: I see. R: But if you d cut it down to under 65 foot, they wouldn t have to be under inspection you see. I: I see. So his boat had to be federally inspected. R: But her tug Bos; she was still under 65, so she didn t have to be inspected. I: And it was the same family that R: Same family, yes ma am. 3

I: Well that s interesting. Didn t you tell me one time about somebody cutting his boat down, so he wouldn t R: That was Peter Fase, he cut it down to 65 feet. So he wouldn t have to have government inspections, yeah. I: So he wouldn t have to have federal inspection. I suppose they didn t like to be bothered that way. R: He didn t want to be bothered, yes ma am. Uh-huh. I: Okay, now let s recall again, the last one you mentioned then was the Dornbos which you said was the so-called, king of the fleet. And you were on that at one time, weren t you? R: Yeah. And then there was the tug Robbins III, she was owned by Nathanial Robbins. And then there was the tug Alice, she was owned by Peter Fase. I: The one you just spoke of. R: Yes, he had three tugs. There was two of them I didn t mention before. He had the Dutch and the Sport, but they were both gasoline boats. They weren t steam like the A. J. Alice was. I: Oh the Alice was the best one R: Yeah, she was a steam I: Well, now tell me, this Peter Fase that was the father of Jake and Henry R: Jake Fase, Henry Fase and Corky Fase. I: Yeah, those boys are all gone, aren t they? R: They are all dead, they all died of heart attacks. I: But Jake s wife, Bertha Fase, was on our last program. R: Was she? I: Yeah. R: Oh yeah, I see. I: See the Boseker sisters, you know. 4

R: Oh yeah, that was real I: So that s kind of interesting. This would be her father-in-law s boat then, wouldn t it? R: Yeah, uh-huh. Then there was a new tug they built, it was the A. J. Fisher. Now that was the same Fisher that belonged to Abe and I: You just mentioned, the one that had the Auger. R: The one that had the Auger. I: But this is a newer boat? R: This was a brand new boat, it was built at Ferrysburg. I: Oh, is that Johnston R: Johnston Brothers Boiler Works, yes ma am. I: Oh great. R: And then there was a tug, Neptune. And that was owned by Abel Abbinga. I: Wasn t he related to the Fase family? Weren t the Abbinga s and Fases related or am I wrong? R: Yes, they were related. I: And VanZylen s were kind of related, weren t they there too I think? R: Yes, uh-huh. I: I used to live right there at the foot of the sand hill. R: Yeah, Abel Abbinga, he lived right on Clinton Street. There was a time that airplane went through his house. I: Right, that s right. That was quite a bit later then, you were talking about it, isn t it? R: Yes, uh-huh. And then there was a tug Johanna, that was owned by Martin O Beck. I: Now would that be a father of Marie O Beck who is still living? R: Father I: And her brother, Adrian, I think or was it 5

R: No there was other O Becks too. There was, I think there was five other brothers. I can t name them all, but I know one of them was Ed and Jake, them was the two oldest, ones that I only remember. But there was five brothers and there is only one living and that s Marie. I: That s Marie. R: Marie is the only one living I: Yes. R: Of the O Beck family. I: That s right, of the family, she is the sister. R: Of the family, yes ma am. I: That s what I was wondering if it wasn t one of her brothers. And that was the Johanna? R: That was the Johanna. I: I think I can remember hearing about the Johanna. R: Uh-huh, then there was the Theresa D. and that was owned by Clark Deremo. The Deremo brothers. I: Oh the Deremo Bayou up the river, is that named for that Deremo? R: No. I: This is the Deremo that lived on Clinton Street? R: He lived right on Clinton Street and he had a son, Gerb. I: Caleb VerDuin. R: Uh-huh. I: I remember that family. R: He had a son, Gerb and he died here just shortly not too long ago. And he would fish with his father. I: I see. 6

R: And later on he went to Detroit and retired out of Detroit and came here to live. I: I see and that was Theresa, was that the name of his R: That was the Thresea D, yes ma am. I: Theresa D, uh-huh. R: And then there was the Smith brothers, she was owned by Captain Pooler(?). I: I wonder if that was named for the Smith Brothers Cough Drops? R: Yeah, he came from out of the city too and came here with the Smith brothers. And he lived right across from the old county jail before they burned I: Oh there were some Fishers that lived along in there too. R: Yeah, there were some other Fishers there. There was Ryan, Grahm Fisher from Hondis Fisher, Waller Fisher. I: And did they all fish too? R: They all fished. I: But they didn t own the boats? R: No, they didn t, they were old steamboats, they went out with a rowboat and a sail on it, out to their pond nets to lift, you see, if their pond nets, and they d bring in oh, sturgeon, small sturgeon and a few other kind of whitefish and that, suckers and I: Enough to make a living R: Enough to make a living. I: Without having to hire other crewmen, I suppose. R: That s right. I: Well that s R: They went all by theirselves. And they d go out every morning by sail. I: Early in the morning I suppose. R: Early in the morning, 6:00 they d hoist the sail up and out they d go in a rowboat. 7

I: In a rowboat. R: Yeah, just in a rowboat, yes ma am. I: That s really great. R: So it was really nice. Then there was a George VanHall, I: What? R: That was owned by I: Was that the name of the boat or was that the owner, George VanHall? R: No, George VanHall was the owner. I: Was the owner? He owned the Bertha, didn t he? R: Yeah he owned the tug, Bertha too. He was a former member of, he used to run the city dump down here, George VanHall. I: Oh that s the same George VanHall? R: Same George VanHall, yes. I: Oh, I see, uh-huh. R: And then there was a tug Hilda. She was owned by Cal VerDuin and their sons, George and Claude. I: And they fished with their dad. R: They fished with their dad. I: And those boys later were quite important in fishing. R: Yes. And he had two boats too. One of them was I: You mentioned that, I think the Dornbos, wasn t it, was that Caleb s boat or didn t you mention Caleb R: That was a different, after I: Oh a different time, you mean. 8

R: After they disbanded, then Caleb VerDuin went and got the Lawrence first, then he got the Hilda and then his son and Claude and George, they worked with him. And they named it the Hilda cause his wife s name was Hilda. I: The mother sure, the boys mother, right. R: Boys mother was Hilda, yeah. I: Well and then, didn t George VerDuin quite late in the fishing business build a quite remarkable tug of his own, young George? R: Well, young George, he built a tug of his own. I: Yeah, quite a remarkable one, wasn t it? R: Yes, yes, he built that across the river. I: Yeah, wasn t he one of the last ones to do fishing. R: He was the last one, uh-huh, yes. I: I think a lot of people would remember that. R: Oh yeah. I: He was a pretty smart chap, wasn t he? R: Yeah, George was a nice boy. He runs a factory now, I think in Ferrysburg. I: Yes, right. And he did a lot on our musical foundation too. He was quite important in that. R: Oh he was a great guy for that. He was a nice man for that. I: Yeah, he must have been pretty handy, I guess. Well, now were there still others? You ve named a dozen or more now. Are there some more? R: You new the tug Callister owned by J. W. Callister. He was the captain and they lived right on Clinton Street, right across from the old Central School building on Clinton. I: Right, that house is still in there. R: That house is still there yet. I: Right, right. And he was married to one of the Luiken s girls in that famous old band, wasn t it? 9

R: That s right. I: Right, I remember him. Uh-huh, right. Any others that you can think of? That s a good many for sure, I think. Well, let s see, you ve already mentioned, I think that the biggest catch, what was it did you say was the biggest catch you ever had? R: We had 8,000 pounds. I: In one single catch. R: One lift. I: And what kind of fish was that? R: All trout. I: All trout, 8,000 pounds R: Eight thousand pounds we came in. I: And you do notice, I looked this up earlier and it said that in 1884, 500 pounds per season per boat was considered a good catch. R: In the early days. I: Yeah, you ve got 16 times that much in one single haul. R: Uh-huh. I: Well, you know, I wish you d explain how they did it? How did they get the fish? Because I think a lot of folks, including me, do not realize just how you did that. R: We had 16 boxes of gang nets. I: Sixteen boxes. R: Sixteen boxes. I: You mean they are wooden boxes? R: Wooden boxes all packed I: On board your tug. 10

R: Yeah, they are packed in a box. And there are 16 boxes and there is four nets in each box. Well we set them on different courses and maybe it will line up, it will be around five miles of nets on one straight line. I: Five miles? R: Five miles of nets. I: You d go out in the lake a ways before you start I suppose. R: Yeah, we d go, it is all according how far we d go out. Some runs are an hour, some an hour and a half, some are two hour runs. I: Before you d get to the R: Before we d get to our buoy to lift, see. I: Yeah, I see. R: And we d catch all the way from trout, chubs, that s the smoked chubs and I: You mean smoked chubs? What do you mean? R: That, we sent them all to Dornbos. I: Oh, but the chub is the name of a fish? R: The chub, yeah. That s what Dornbos smoked them, smoked chub. And then the time we had the 8,000 pounds, we were lifting on one side with the Dornbos. I was on the Dornbos then and the other crew was on the C. J. Bos, that was William VerDuin and Cal VerDuin was on my tug, the C. J. Bos, or the Dornbos. I: He was the captain. R: So when we got through lifting, they wanted to let us know how much we had. So if one whistle would mean 1,000 pounds, so Cal VerDuin he d go eight whistles. That meant we had 8,000 pounds of trout. I: Just Caleb s crew, huh. R: Yeah, our crew on the Dornbos. I: Yeah, right. R: So then Will VerDuin on the Bos he answered and he blew back six whistles. So he only had six whistles, 6,000 pounds. 11

I: But the two of you brought in 14,000 one day. R: Fourteen thousand pounds of trout in one day. I: Fourteen thousand pounds in one day. R: That s right. I: Just those two. And there were other people fishing the same day? R: Oh yeah, Peter Fise and then they were all along side of us. I: My they were prolific fish. R: We had, see for trout nets you got to have about a four and three-quarter inch mesh, then there is a five inch mesh and there is a six inch mesh. Now, your four and threequarter inch mesh, they catch a little smaller trout. But then you get the five inch mesh and they catch a little bigger one. So then when you get to the six inch mesh, then you get all them big ones around 30, 35 pounders. I: About how long would those be, a couple feet? R: Oh they go oh I ll say, I: More than that even, huh, yeah. R: Four feet. I: Yeah. Golly, really big trout, huh. R: Thirty-five pounders we caught. I: And then you had different kinds of meshes in the different nets? R: Oh yeah. I: Like, for instance, one case of nets would be small mesh? R: Yeah, we d have one case of small ones. I: I see. R: And maybe if we knew the bigger trout were on the outside of our gang of nets, we d set the big mesh on the outside in. That s where most of the bigger ones were. 12

I: And that s what you wanted to catch. R: That s what we wanted to catch. I: Sure. R: And we had one guy with us by the name of George VanHall and he went with us and when they coming up out of the water you got to gaff them first. I: Now what do you mean by that gaff them? R: It is a regular pull with a gaff hook on it, see. I: Oh do you stick that into the fish? R: You stick that in to the fish. I: You get them in R: Right in the side of them, you see. Because if you don t, and the minute he gets out of water, he is going to tear that net right out, because there is too much weight there, see. So you have to gaff them and throw them up over the roller, you see, our lift the roller. I: You get a 35 pounder, that s quite a job, isn t it? R: Well then we had this W. Fisher, they called him Andrew Fisher and he would stand there with a club and he d just hit them over the head. I: The fish? R: Yeah, to stun him, so we could get them out of the nets. Otherwise, they d wiggle all over and we couldn t get them out of the nets, you see. I: Oh my goodness. That s really something. And now if I m right, if you had fish that were too small, you weren t allowed to sell them, is that right? The government had a regulation as to the size? R: Yes, that s what they called a small trout. Under roll off say 10 inches long. I: So, R: That was against the law to sell, they called them what they call them, monkeys. I: Monkey s uh-huh. 13

R: They called them monkeys and we sold them, what we did get we sold them five pounds for 35 cents. I: Rather than throw them back in. Because it would be an illegal catch for commercial R: Yes, we couldn t throw them back in if they are dead, you are not allowed to throw a dead fish in the I: Because that would be pollution. R: Pollution, yes. I: I should say. Well that s really something. R: And we used to come in with quite a few, but we used to hide them so the game warden wouldn t find them. I: Oh the little ones. R: Yeah, and after he went away, well then we started selling. I: Oh come on now Neil that doesn t sound very honest. [laughter] I suppose we have some lessons in morality today, don t we? R: Yeah, that s right. I: Right, well now that s very interesting to me about how you do it. And when you got out there with your nets, you wouldn t just dump them overboard would you, the nets? R: The what? I: You wouldn t just dump the nets out in the lake would you? R: No, oh no, the nets. I: How would you do that? Are there stakes out there R: Well, after we got through lifting I: When you say lifting, you mean taking the catch out huh? R: After we got through lifting them 16 boxes where all the fish were in it, we d put them in boxes and put them along the side of the deck, see. So in the back we had 16 dry boxes of nets that we set right back, see right after we lifted I: Oh, 14

R: We d set them right back again, see. I: As soon as you took your catch, you left your nets go in for the next day s catch, is that it? R: Yeah, we d let them stand out maybe three or four nights before we lifted that same thing, see. I: I see, I see, so whenever you lifted the nets, that is a catch of fish, R: Yeah. I: you d get ready for the next R: We d just turn around I: put dry ones in. R: and set a fresh gang right back where we lifted. I: Oh, I see. Now, was there any province or area that each fisherman had or could everybody go anywhere they wanted to? R: Well, you had to, we all had different I: Did VerDuin have a certain area where he fished and (?) another R: We had different courses to go out. Maybe some day we d go straight out, that s west, right out of the harbor. Maybe go west, southwest out, maybe go nor nor west out, see. And everybody had their different gangs of net. Well lots of times if they wouldn t see our buoy, they d say, wow let s set here. Well lots of time they d set right over our gang of nets. And when we d come to lift them, we could hardly get them up because their net was under ours. I: Oh, uh-huh. R: You see, we had a hold of their net underneath with a grapple hook, we passed the grapple, you see. And then we d have to take the box of nets that we were lifting and just shove them underneath his and let his go down to the bottom again. I: So it really kind of depended on a gentleman s agreement R: Yeah, you had to know the courses where you were going to set. I: Yeah, work with each other, kind of decently. 15

R: That s right. No. I: It wasn t that, one could make it hard for another if he was mean, couldn t he? R: Of course, a lot of them, if they wanted to be mean they d just cut their nets and let them go. I: Did you ever have that happen? R: We had that happen lots of times. I: With your own local men to each other? R: Yes. I: Would they do that? R: Yes. I: You hate to think of that, don t you? R: Yeah. I: Uh-huh. R: Of course when they d come afterwards, they d have to grapple for that net that went apart. I: And then when you brought the catch in, that s when I can remember seeing them along the riverfront, these kind of wheel things where they d have the nets drying. R: Oh yeah, you d have your nets drying on the reel. I: Reel, that s what they are called, a reel. A great big thing. R: Reel, yeah. Yeah, your corks would be on the right-hand side and your leads would be on the other. Then you d reel them right up, you see. I remember one day, in particular, the game warden was there and he stopped Bill Krause. He was reeling in nets and he wanted to measure it, see if it was right mesh, see. If it was under two and three-quarters he could pinch this. See, at that time, the mesh was two and three-quarters inch along, that was state law. So Bill Krause says, you ain t going to measure these nets until I get through reeling this box of nets up. So, Stalsbury grabbed a hold of Krause and they both wrestled on the floor and it cost Pete VerDuin $100 in cost. I: Why Pete VerDuin? 16

R: Well he was the shore boss and he paid the bills. I: I see. It wasn t out of his own pocket. It was from the company. R: No, it was from the firm. I: I see, so you did have a little excitement out there, didn t you? R: Oh yeah, we had a lot of excitement. I: Well, can you recall from your own experiences some interesting things that happened during the years that you were on the tugs? Anything come to mind of your R: I had several of them that I got I: Oh come on; tell us a few, will you? R: Well, I went out I: If we don t have enough time, we ll have you come back and tell us some more another day. R: When I was in Smith Brothers one day I: Smith Brothers that was the name of the tug. R: Yeah, that was on the tug. And I just took this fellow s place, he was sick and I went out with him. That s the time we pretty near lost our life on the Smith Brother. We just, we came in the harbor, I was telling you sideways, you know. And we had about three other tugs way up north. They were lifting off Muskegon then I: Well was it a wind that made it so bad that day? R: Yeah, it was blowing about 50 miles an hour at that time. I: You couldn t head into it, you had to R: We could go home if we wanted to, but Captain Pooler just stuck it out. Pete Fase went home and two or three tugs went home. I: Without doing any fishing you mean? R: Without doing any fishing. They just cut them off and put a buoy on em and went home. But Captain Pooler, he said no, we ll lift one more gang and one more box and. So it was getting pretty near hurricane, the wind was about 50 miles per hour. If we had went 17

home when they did, we might have made it a lot better, see. But we waited an hour longer because it takes an hour to lift the box of hooks. I: And you were quite far out in the lake I take it. R: We were way off of Muskegon. I: Oh brother. R: And ah, so when we started to come home there was nothing working. The pumps weren t working, the injectors weren t working to get water into the boiler and I was a fireman and I was firing water in the furnace and coal at the same time. We couldn t get no steam up. And we had one fellow with us; he had a banana in his pail. I: In his dinner pail. R: In his dinner pail. He come to me, he said, Neil, he says I got a banana in my dinner pail, he says I think I m going to eat it, he says because this is the last darn banana I m going to eat. I ll never eat another one, because we are not going to make it. But we were lucky, not that we made. We came in the harbor sideways, we knocked in a couple doors and we got on top of them big swells, we just had to go right with the swell because we didn t have no steam and we got down in the big waves, they must have been anyway 10 to 12 foot waves. When we went down in one of them waves, the people on the pier couldn t even see us until we come up on the high waves, you see, then they could see us. I: On the crest of it. R: Then we d go down, then they couldn t see us again. I: Now you were approaching the harbor by this time, but you were near the pier. R: Yes. I: And people out there watching you, because it was, everybody was afraid I suppose. R: Yeah, Dornbos, he was on the pier that day and he says to me time and again, he says, Neil, he said I never thought you were going to make it. But we finally made it in. I: And you didn t knock into the pier. R: No we were lucky we didn t hit the pier. And after we got up to the lookout by the Coast Guard, then we felt pretty safe. I: Yeah, you were in the river then I ll bet. R: In the river, yeah. 18

I: The waves would be R: We were safe there. I: That really must have been an experience. R: Yeah, that was quite an experience. I: I d say so. R: It was really something. I: Now, did you use to fish all through the year or just in the summer? R: No we d fish winter until and in the fall until the ice got too thick and we couldn t get through it all. I: But you would go out when there was ice in the lake? R: There was ice in the lake, a lot of times they would be, you couldn t get out one morning, but some mornings the wind would be off the land, you see. And that would loosen the ice up. And then you could pick your holes and go through it. But maybe coming back at night the wind would shift to the nor west and come and pack that ice right back into the shore again. That s when we had our trouble. I: I ll bet. R: That s when we got stuck. And we d have to wait for the car ferries. I: Oh, you had been stuck in the ice on a fish tug then? R: Oh I ve been stuck plenty of times, lots of times. I: For overnight. R: Oh yes, a week at a time. I: You mean stuck out there for a whole week? R: Six miles out one time. I: In a little fish tug. R: Uh-huh. 19

I: Weren t you scared? R: Well, we were scared and we were running out of fuel. I: Did you have provisions for food for that long or R: Well we generally carried beans and crackers and coffee, something like that. I: I suppose you kind of anticipated that you might be stuck. R: Might be stuck. And, of course, we ran out of cigarettes which wasn t very good, we didn t have anymore, so I: And you d be so nervous you needed them. R: Yeah, we had some tea leaves there, we didn t have no cigarette papers, so we just took a piece of newspaper and rolled that in there and we smoked tea leaves. I: Oh no. You were really pretty desperate weren t you? R: Yeah. I: I should say. R: And then we went I: Well now then did the car ferries save you in some way? R: Oh yeah, they always generally could, the car ferries saved us a lot. They helped us an awful lot. There was a car ferry, Madison that was on, that was Captain Martin and there was a Captain Cavanaugh, he was on the Milwaukee. There was Captain Traill, you remember Captail Traill? I: Yes I do, I sure do. R: He was on the Grand Haven and then there was another one, I think it was I: Bob McKay was later on a car ferry. R: Bob McKay was on one. And they helped us. One was Captain Gallagher. I: Oh, I don t remember him. R: Captain Gallagher. I think he was on the City of Grand Rapids. 20

I: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, sadly our time is up. So, would you mind giving another program and telling some more of your experiences, Neil? R: Well sure, sure I got a lot more to tell. I: Well, good. R: You mean that 30 minutes. I: Thank you, yes sir, 30 minutes is gone. It doesn t seem possible, does it? R: Oh no, it can t be. I: Thank you so much for coming up today. R: Well, I m glad to come up and I m glad to come up again. I: Okay, we ll have you on another program then. R: Okay. 21