Interview with Mr. Freddie Mukosi Munzhelele, outside the house of his son in the village This took place on June 4, 2004 in the morning outside his home. Madzhuta, Leonard, Lindsay, and Lynn were talking to Freddie. M: Could you please introduce yourself for us? When were you born? F: 1929. I was born at Madolilo Mountain near Mabweni. M. Do you have any information about Thulamela and Makahane? F: I have very little information. But Makahane was a very cruel chief, the cruelest around. For example, he made 6 old men take a cow skin in their teeth and stand there till the hide has dried. He made people work in the sun no matter how long it took, no matter how hot. He was so cruel. They call it now Bando-lamakahane, which means cruel treatment now in Venda. There was no rest. He used to send people down the hill, another would be holding a chain, they would be looking for birds called Malidzavhana. If the birds were not fully grown and couldn t be taken, the king would let the man on the chain fall into the river where he would die, or be eaten. M: Who built the walls at Makahane? They re still standing. F: My people built the walls. M: If I did something wrong, the chief might make me build them if I did something wrong? F: Not really, sometimes the chief can invite all men to help build them. But also some men could be made build the walls as a punishment. M: The time you worked at the royal kraal could you see the chief? F: Sometimes he would come out if there was something really important. M: How many wives did he have? F: I don t know, but plenty. M: Why did the old chiefs always want to stay at the hilltop? F: They want to see things in the distance. Maybe during the war, we can hide all our wives and children. More than 10 to 20 were there watching. If people were cowards we would have time to run away as well.
M: Is Madolilo inside KNP jurisdiction? F: I was born into the royal family. There was a lot of taboos. Madolilo is now inside the park, yes. I am the son of the headman under the chief of Phiriphri Tshivhase. M: Did the chief come and visit you? F: not really, because it was a big area. The headmen used to visit him at his kraal. M: Have you ever worked at Kruger National Park? F: I worked for a time at the 10 feet high fence. M: Who was the park manager at the time? F: Skukuza. M: Why the name Skukuza? F. He is the one who steals M. When did you move? F: A long time ago. M: At Thulamela there is this excavation with the bones being removed. Do you think this is allowed by Venda tradition? F: As you know, a chief must be buried in his palace. During those days after the death of the chief, he was put in his palace for 6 months. The posts were laid down and the body was put on top, covered with blankets. They put clay pots underneath, the fats from the body would be collected and smeared onto the son who was to succeed him. After he died, there is no hole left in the house, so no smell escapes. Then after the son is chief he makes his own palace. But the dead chief s palace must be opened by the son with the dead chief s half-sister. M: Who used to stay at Thulamela? F: The people are Makahane family. They moved to the other site (Makahane) after a fight with the Shangaan people from Mozambique. After a fight they left. Thulamela and Makahane are the same people.
L: During the excavation, the Doctor said the chief was stabbed with a spear. Do you know how Makahane died? F: I don t know. M: Do you sometimes visit your ruins? F: I haven t gone there, there are laws restricting me from walking around the park. M: We are responsible for people coming into the park, to conduct their ceremonies and come into the park. There is no problem. F: People always say we will go to visit. I am not really worrying about it, but the family talks about it. M: The environmental center at Punda Maria. There is a lot of excavation at Thulamela, bones, gold, eggshell, gongs so you want them there for the children to see. Do you think it is important for them to be on display? F: During the olden days it wasn t really allowed. But we are living in a world of changes. The children should know, even the government should know whats going on. M: When coming to this ritual ceremony, when did you do them? F: Depends on the ancestors, they tell us when we are supposed to conduct it. After the harvesting, I have to share something with my ancestors form the field. Around August. Maybe on a spot where the ceremony is, it requires cattle to be there, you can take it out of the kraal. Just leave it there, not slaughter it, just leave it. L: Because you are part of the royal family, its not possible for the chief to be installed before you are married? Correct? F: Yes, a chief can be installed. But getting a wife must be done quickly once he is installed if he is not yet married. His father s sister and his father s younger brother can find him a wife. He cannot marry from the commoners, it must be from a royal family. M: What if you do not like this woman? F: It was a rare situation. M: Did you have any of the excavation at Thulamela explained to you?
F: No, none of this was explained to me. But I did visit in Thulamela when the bones were being taken out. I saw them when they were on the side M: Do you know what an archaeologist is? F: No. L: Since this bones have been removed, did they (the archaeologists) pour snuff (an offering) in order to tell the ancestors? F: According to tradition it should have been done, but because it was performed by white people, it wasn t done. M: Last month around Skukuza and the contractor was working. Bones were exposed during work and first a man poured a snuff down (tobacco) on the ground. F: Not everybody were involved in the project, and if people really knew they might have done it. It was only whites and a few other people. L: What about the 3 big monoliths at Thulamela? They were there for protection. F: A chief must have its own traditional healer (Nga in Venda) who must be close to the royal family. He can help other people too. The chief shouldn t get medication close by, but go far away. L: Was the chief allowed to stay with his younger brothers at Thulamela? F: Yes, a chief shouldn t be separated from his brothers. Near where the court was the younger brothers used to stay. M: Where did the commoners stay? F: Very few were up the top, most were in the valley. During that time there were not plenty as we are today. M: What is KNP doing in terms of land claims, allowing people to visit their sites, is it a god thing? F: Its very good. It s a good idea to let people go back and visit. If they can say go back and stay where you used to live that would be a good thing. L: What are the advantages of being close to the park? F: There is nothing either way.
L: So there is nothing in the park that you would like to have? F: Even if he cant ask, I know you wont give me. All you can do is hire a car and get into the park. I would like to see elephant, lions. Having access to medicinal plants. I would like to see game, all I would like to get into the park. I was born with animals and now it takes me months to see one animal. M: What is the relationship between the park and the community outside. F: Since we are staying close to each other we are used to each other. M: Do you know anything about the new Parfuri gate and its opening (a few hundred meters away) F: I don t know anything about it. Did people from the next village go? L: What were the traditional activities you used to play at Modolilo? F: Tshigompela, Tshikona, Thsinzerere, Domba (python dance), Vhusha all dances M: Who killed Makahane, did he die naturally or did someone kill him? F: We don t know who killed him because he passed on a long time ago. Makahane may not have been the one killed with a spear because he moved from Thulamela after that, so it cannot be him. No one knows who killed him. M: Do we still have Makahane people around this community? F: Yes, you can find them at Masunda and Makuya. L: Those white guys who excavated at Thulamela made a booklet, your name is there. Who are the Lembethu people? F: Lemebthu, they are now Venda. Their language was something between Venda and Karanga, but now they are Venda. I have not seen the booklet on Thulamela. Once he heard Vhanyani and Vhadzanani, they are the Lembetu. (Freddie starts speaking Lembethu, lots of laughing). I used to speak it, but now there aren t people speaking it, I speak Venda. There are less people speaking it. M: Anything you would like to ask us? F: I want to know if the information will be understood in Venda? M: We will translate it, we use the tape machine. Should we write everything down or not?
F: Yes, it is fine to be on paper. Are you taking photos of me, what will be the end product? LMM: Much of it will be kept private hopefully some of it will be on the web and in the heritage center. Hopefully his opinion will be used. F: The rain-makers should not be buried underground. What they used to do after the rain-makers passed away they would do the same thing as with the chief (ie. Closing up the corpse inside a sealed house or cave). Even with myself, we used to go to Zimbabwe to consul the rain-makers I even did this personally. L: Tell us more about the rain-making ritual process. F: Zwifhoni a sacred place where the kings are buried separately from the commoners. L: What about these sites? F: At Zwifhoni, this is where they would ask for the rain. Zwifhoni can be the burial site of a rain-maker as well as a king. It takes 1-2 years for the corpse to rot in the house b/f the bones are taken into a cave, for the rain-makers. During the hey-dey the process of burying the rain-makers and the kings was the same. L: How do you ask for the rain? F: You stick the tobacco sniff onto the ground. And the person who is asking for the rain, should be someone who is not circumcised. You should explain that you have been sent by the chief. Whatever thing you go with, you will take it and the rain-maker will instruct you to never put the thing down, b/c they are afraid that it might rain preemptively. It might rain for more than 2 weeks, to the extent that you might have to return to the rain-maker and ask him to make it stop. L: After you have received the rain, what do you give to the rain-makers. F: Sometimes you give him a sheep. M: People say that boys from the royal family shouldn t be circumcised. Why? F: During the ritual ceremonies the ancestors just won t accept it. L: This initiation school is from another culture, it s not indigenous, where is it from? It used to be free of charge in these areas.
F: It is from the VhaLemba tradition, they were doing it only for their own children but now everyone can do this. LMM: Thank him for his time. F: Thank you very much. I m really happy, there was another white lady, but she only gave him 10 rand, so he likes Lynn and Lindsay much better. Makahane (known as Phandembili means two poles, forked) all the old men refer to the site as such, the Venda name.