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1 1 2 VILLAGE OF SAGAPONACK 3 COUNTY OF SUFFOLK: STATE OF NEW YORK 4 --------------------------------------------x 5 VILLAGE OF SAGAPONACK 6 ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS 7 REGULAR MEETING AND PUBLIC HEARING 8 --------------------------------------------x 9 January 11, 2013 10 4:00 p.m. 11 3175 Montauk Highway 12 Sagaponack, New York 13 A P P E A R A N C E S: 14 RICHARD THAYER, Vice Chairman 15 WILLIAM TILLOTSON, Board Member 16 JOHN N. WHITE, Board Member 17 MARILEE FOSTER, Board Member 18 LAUREN THAYER, Alternate Board Member 19 ANTHONY B. TOHILL, Village Attorney 20 ROSEMARIE CARY WINCHELL, Village Clerk 21 NOT PRESENT: 22 ELLIOTT MEISEL, Chairperson 23 24 Barbara D. Snyder Court Reporter 25

2 1 Proceedings 2 MR. THAYER: It's 4:00. I'd 3 like to bring the meeting to order. 4 The Pledge of Allegiance, please. 5 (Pledge of Allegiance 6 recited.) 7 MR. THAYER: Has everybody 8 read the minutes? 9 ALL: Yes. 10 MR. THAYER: I need a 11 motion. 12 MR. TILLOTSON: I make a 13 motion to accept the minutes. 14 MS. FOSTER: Second. 15 MR. THAYER: All in favor? 16 ALL: Aye. 17 MS. CARY WINCHELL: And I'd 18 just like to verify that is from 19 the December 14, 2012, meeting. 20 MR. THAYER: Yes. Today is 21 January 11, 2013. Village of 22 Sagaponack Zoning Board of Appeals, 23 4:00 p.m. 24 Okay. Old business. 25 There's none. And new business is

3 2 Nick Martin -- 3 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 4 MR. THAYER: -- who is here. 5 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 6 MR. THAYER: 908-1-4-4; 2913 7 Montauk Highway. Application 8 Number 16 of 2012. Application of 9 Nick Martin for area variances 10 follows: 11 To allow placement of a 12 freestanding sign where the 13 building to which it relates is set 14 back 32.2 feet where the code 15 requires 40 feet; to allow a 16 freestanding sign one inch from the 17 front lot line and six feet from 18 the east lot line where the code 19 requires 20 feet in each instance. 20 To allow a double-sided 21 professional sign with 3.8 square 22 feet of signage each side where the 23 code allows a maximum of two square 24 feet; and to allow a professional 25 sign to display two businesses

4 2 where the code states a residence 3 may have no more than one 4 professional sign. 5 Application adjourned from 6 December meeting as per applicant's 7 request. 8 And Nick is here tonight, 9 Mr. Martin. 10 MR. MARTIN: Yes, I am. I'm 11 being represented -- 12 MR. McCULLEY: Timothy S. 13 McCulley; Burke and Sullivan, 41 14 Meetinghouse Lane, Southampton, for 15 the applicant. 16 Just one correction. It is 17 supposed to be one foot, not one 18 inch. 19 MR. THAYER: Okay. 20 MR. McCULLEY: Just for the 21 record, the property is located on 22 the south side of Montauk Highway. 23 It's approximately 1,200 feet west 24 of Sagaponack Village -- I mean 25 Sagaponack Main Street. It's in

5 2 the R-40 zone. 3 The property consists of 4 approximately 112,500 square feet. 5 But about 50,000-plus square feet 6 of that is wetlands buffer in the 7 back. The property is irregularly 8 shaped. 9 The property is improved 10 with a residence, deck, and pool. 11 Part of the bottom floor of the 12 dwelling is used as a home office, 13 and the rest of the dwelling is 14 occupied by the applicant as a 15 residence. The dwelling is 32 feet 16 from the front property line. 17 The applicant is a licensed 18 architect and also a builder. His 19 architectural business uses the 20 name Nick Martin Architects. 21 MR. MARTIN: Martin 22 Architects. 23 MR. McCULLEY: Pardon? 24 MR. MARTIN: Martin 25 Architects.

6 2 MR. McCULLEY: Okay. And 3 then you have the building 4 business. 5 MR. MARTIN: Yes, 4MA 6 Builders. 7 MR. McCULLEY: We have a C 8 of C for that home office business. 9 The entire length of the property 10 is irregularly shaped. But for our 11 purposes, and most important for 12 this application is the fact that 13 there's 276 feet along Montauk 14 Highway. 15 The entire length of the 16 road frontage is screened from 17 Montauk Highway by a mature hedge 18 which is very tall and wide. I 19 have a picture, and I have to 20 apologize that it's not the 21 greatest picture in the world 22 because my printer ink was acting 23 up (handing), but that shows -- the 24 sign is at the bottom of the 25 picture.

7 2 The hedge preexists the 3 ownership of the property by 4 Mr. Martin. But it is important I 5 think for the applicant to maintain 6 that mature hedge along Montauk 7 Highway. 8 Maintaining the hedge and 9 the existing fence results in there 10 being no conforming place where he 11 can put the sign other than where 12 it's proposed on that little 13 section by the driveway. Because 14 that hedge, as you'll see from 15 survey, actually wanders a little 16 bit north. 17 But it's -- none of it is 18 south onto his property, which 19 means you can't put a sign up there 20 because you'd be in the 21 right-of-way and I don't think this 22 Board has the right to give that 23 relief, and I don't think the DOT 24 would appreciate you doing it if 25 you could.

8 2 So we're asking for that 3 ground identification sign. Now, 4 it requires a variance because the 5 house is only 32 feet from the road 6 where 40 is required by the code. 7 And also, we're asking for 8 relief, of course, from the front 9 yard and the side yard. The side 10 yard, six feet; the front yard, one 11 foot. And we're asking for relief 12 from the code section that limits 13 the sign to two square feet. We're 14 asking for 3.8 feet. It's a 15 double-sided sign so you'll see it 16 coming both ways. 17 Also, in the turn down 18 letter, John had indicated that 19 there were two businesses being -- 20 that the sign is split in half; the 21 top with the architecture. The 22 other with the building. But it's 23 all the same people working in the 24 same building, but for licensing 25 purposes it has to be separated.

9 2 As I read the code, it says 3 that you can have one sign in a 4 residential area, but having two 5 businesses on that sign I don't 6 think runs afoul of the code. 7 MR. TOHILL: Tim, on the 8 Barylski survey there's a note in 9 the northeasternmost corner. It 10 says "proposed sign to be south of 11 the property line and six feet 12 west." Isn't that entirely 13 incorrect? It's not south of the 14 property line. It can't be, or is 15 it? 16 MR. McCULLEY: Yes, south. 17 MR. TOHILL: It is? Okay. 18 And then is it -- 19 MR. McCULLEY: It's south 20 and west. 21 MS. FOSTER: West of the 22 easterly property line. 23 MR. McCULLEY: Yeah. West 24 of the easterly boundary. So where 25 the --

10 2 MR. TOHILL: So it's just 3 not articulated -- okay. 4 MR. THAYER: So it's on the 5 property? It's not on the state 6 property. 7 MR. McCULLEY: It's on the 8 property. It would be on the 9 property. 10 MR. TOHILL: Okay. 11 MR. THAYER: What year was 12 this house built? So, it's 13 preexisting; right? 14 MR. MARTIN: 1777 is my best 15 recollection from the records. 16 MR. THAYER: Okay. 17 MR. McCULLEY: And I've 18 ridden up and down several times in 19 the last few days -- ridden up and 20 down through the Village and looked 21 at Montauk Highway. I mean, you 22 have all, like, open space 23 everywhere. It's either 24 development rights have been sold 25 or it's county owned.

11 2 So I don't -- this is a very 3 unique piece. 4 MR. THAYER: Okay. 5 MR. McCULLEY: In other 6 words, if you drive past his 7 residence, and keep on going right 8 to the end of the Village, you will 9 not find another piece that has a 10 similar situation. 11 MS. FOSTER: Yet. 12 MR. McCULLEY: No, I don't 13 think there's -- 14 MS. FOSTER: Because all of 15 -- wait. Isn't -- 16 MR. McCULLEY: I don't think 17 there's a possibility. 18 MS. FOSTER: What about all 19 of Wilber's land? 20 MR. WHITE: No, no. He's 21 saying going from there east. 22 MR. THAYER: All the 23 preexisting signs are a lot larger. 24 MR. WHITE: You sold the 25 development rights to --

12 2 MS. FOSTER: No, no. I'm not 3 talking about my land. 4 MR. MARTIN: They're as much 5 as 15 times larger. 6 MR. THAYER: Yes, all the 7 other signs are larger. 8 MR. MARTIN: Even across the 9 street is -- 10 MR. McCULLEY: All the signs 11 in the Village -- and I know some 12 of the -- 13 MR. MARTIN: -- eight or nine 14 times -- 15 MR. THAYER: Hold on. 16 MR. McCULLEY: I know that 17 there are larger signs, and I know 18 some of them preexisted the Village 19 and so forth, and they probably 20 wouldn't be permitted today. But 21 if you take, for instance, right 22 across the street you have the ARF 23 sign with the same -- they have the 24 same problem with the hedge. 25 In order to preserve the

13 2 hedge, they pushed their sign up. 3 So we're asking for similar relief. 4 MR. WHITE: Does ARF have a 5 permit for their sign? 6 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Their 7 sign is legal right now, yes. 8 MR. TOHILL: I am not doing 9 permit -- 10 MS. CARY WINCHELL: It is 11 legal. It's legal the way it is. 12 MR. WHITE: Okay. And 13 that's a lot bigger than the one 14 they have now? 15 MS. CARY WINCHELL: I don't 16 know the size. 17 MR. THAYER: This picture 18 here (indicating) -- 19 MR. McCULLEY: Yes. 20 MR. THAYER: Where is -- 21 show me where the -- I don't see 22 where the sign is. 23 MR. McCULLEY: Okay. Sorry. 24 It's right there (indicating). 25 MR. THAYER: Oh, it's way

14 2 down there (indicating). Okay. 3 MR. McCULLEY: Yes. I'm 4 standing at the -- that's the west 5 end of his property. The idea of 6 that picture was to show you the 7 hedge. And I can substitute a 8 better picture. 9 MR. THAYER: No, that's 10 fine. 11 MR. McCULLEY: Just the -- 12 MR. THAYER: I recall the 13 sign, where it is now. 14 MR. McCULLEY: -- the printer 15 was going a little crazy. 16 MR. MARTIN: And the sign, 17 by the way, that's existing is, I 18 believe, larger than the one that 19 would be proposed. I believe 20 that's the case. 21 MR. THAYER: Okay. 22 MS. FOSTER: Is there -- do 23 we have the sign? 24 MR. MARTIN: Yeah. There's 25 a little drawing --

15 2 MS. FOSTER: Of the actual 3 sign? 4 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 5 MR. TOHILL: So the problem 6 is the hedge? 7 MR. McCULLEY: Yes. 8 MR. TOHILL: Where the 9 public benefit is from the hedge. 10 MR. McCULLEY: Exactly. 11 MR. TOHILL: And the harm, 12 if any, is diminished by reason of 13 the hedge. 14 MR. McCULLEY: Exactly. The 15 hedge is -- it creates an aesthetic 16 entrance to the Village, which I 17 think that that's what you want to 18 keep. 19 MR. TOHILL: Right. 20 MR. McCULLEY: And in order 21 to make this a conforming sign, or 22 put it anywhere other than where 23 it's proposed, that hedge has to be 24 taken down. 25 MR. MARTIN: And then also

16 2 the berm, and also the other mature 3 plantings. 4 MR. TOHILL: There's a berm 5 there? 6 MR. MARTIN: On the 7 property. You see -- I don't know 8 if that's a topo, but there's -- 9 MR. TOHILL: No. 10 MR. MARTIN: There's a legal 11 mound of earth that is to code. 12 MR. TOHILL: And the berm -- 13 then the hedges are on top? 14 MR. MARTIN: No, no. The 15 hedges actually are north. 16 MR. McCULLEY: In front. 17 MR. TOHILL: So closer to 18 Montauk Highway? 19 MR. THAYER: So the berm 20 is -- 21 MR. MARTIN: South. 22 MR. THAYER: -- west of your 23 driveway? 24 MR. MARTIN: It's south. 25 MR. THAYER: South?

17 2 MR. MARTIN: South of the 3 lot line. 4 MR. THAYER: Right. But on 5 the east side or the west side? 6 MR. MARTIN: It runs the 7 entire length. 8 MR. THAYER: On the east 9 side along the easterly border? 10 MR. MARTIN: Oh, no. I'm 11 sorry. Yes. There is one along 12 the easterly as well as on the 13 north side (indicating). 14 MR. THAYER: Okay. 15 MR. McCULLEY: So the whole 16 problem is, if we had to take that 17 whole hedge down, I think that 18 aesthetically is not what the Board 19 would be looking to do. And it's 20 curious in reading the code, if 21 this was a real estate for sale 22 sign, and there's no limitation on 23 that, it could be four feet. 24 It could be a four-foot 25 sign. It could stay out there for

18 2 -- you know, I could say I'm 3 selling for three years. 4 MR. TILLOTSON: But this is 5 a permanent sign. 6 MR. McCULLEY: Yes. 7 MR. TILLOTSON: A real 8 estate sign is temporary. 9 MR. McCULLEY: Right. But 10 it doesn't -- code really doesn't 11 provide for that. You know what 12 I'm saying? In other words, a real 13 estate sign normally in the codes 14 is less than an announcement sign 15 or an advertising sign. I just 16 found that curious in the code. 17 MR. THAYER: Okay. 18 MR. MARTIN: I mean, the 19 idea is, you know, as a licensed 20 state professional, you're allowed 21 to have a home office. And you 22 work hard and you want to just hang 23 your shingle out. And so I don't 24 see another way of being able to do 25 that.

19 2 MR. THAYER: Okay. Anybody 3 got any more questions? 4 MR. TOHILL: The edge of 5 pavement is shown north of your lot 6 line. The scale is 60. Is it fair 7 to say that that distance from the 8 edge of your lot line, which would 9 be the -- if you're one foot inside 10 your lot line, it looks to me like 11 you've probably got -- on a 60 12 scale, plus or minus 20 feet to the 13 edge of the pavement. 14 MR. MARTIN: It's probably 15 about 26 feet. 16 MR. TOHILL: Twenty-six 17 feet? 18 MR. MARTIN: I believe it's 19 about 26. 20 MR. TOHILL: Okay. 21 MR. MARTIN: It varies 22 because the street is not parallel 23 in all locations. 24 MR. McCULLEY: If you look 25 at the pictures of that, the grass

20 2 in front of the hedge is very, very 3 wide. 4 MR. TOHILL: Okay. 5 MR. McCULLEY: And there is 6 a, you know, a place to pull off on 7 the road there, too. It's very 8 wide there. 9 MR. TOHILL: Okay. 10 MR. TILLOTSON: I think it 11 would have been helpful to have a 12 cardboard mockup of what the sign 13 was; how big it is to visualize the 14 size of it. 15 MS. THAYER: You said right 16 now it's bigger than the 17 proposed -- 18 MR. MARTIN: It's slightly 19 larger. 20 MR. THAYER: It's two foot 21 by two foot right now; right? 22 MR. MARTIN: Just about. 23 It's about the same. It's a little 24 bit larger than the one we're 25 proposing. And then --

21 2 MR. McCULLEY: Do you have a 3 drawing of it in there? 4 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, there's a 5 drawing actually in the 6 application. 7 MR. TOHILL: I'm not sure we 8 got that. 9 MS. CARY WINCHELL: I don't 10 think we did get it. 11 MR. THAYER: I don't recall 12 it. 13 MR. McCULLEY: (Perusing 14 file.) 15 MR. TILLOTSON: I guess my 16 point is, you can say 3.8 square 17 feet, but it's hard to visualize 18 what 3.8 square feet looks like 19 actually. I mean, you know, what 20 are you scaling -- 21 MR. MARTIN: I'd say this 22 window is not -- is probably a bit 23 larger than the sign. 24 MS. CARY WINCHELL: I have a 25 ruler.

22 2 MR. THAYER: Well, four is 3 two-foot square. If it's two-foot 4 square, if it's this big 5 (indicating). 6 MR. MARTIN: Yeah. So these 7 sheets of paper are 11. So a 8 little larger than that 9 (indicating). 10 MS. FOSTER: I'm pretty sure 11 that that ARF sign is probably 12 four-by-four. Just as a -- 13 MR. THAYER: No, I think 14 it's much larger. 15 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, I 16 think -- 17 MS. CARY WINCHELL: It's 18 under a different code. 19 MS. FOSTER: No, I know. 20 But I'm just saying, they're right 21 across the street from one another. 22 MR. TILLOTSON: Yeah, but 23 that's been there for many years 24 even though their face changed. 25 MR. THAYER: Tony, what

23 2 about trimming the hedge back some? 3 MR. TOHILL: No. It 4 actually is one of those -- there's 5 a First Amendment side to this. 6 He's allowed to do business. His 7 use is a permitted use. And the 8 code can't be unreasonable because 9 of the need to express -- 10 MS. CARY WINCHELL: That 11 size? 12 MR. McCULLEY: Smaller. 13 MR. MARTIN: It's a bit 14 smaller than that. 15 MS. CARY WINCHELL: This 16 window is 32 -- the window, the 17 glass, 32 by 24. 18 MR. McCULLEY: So that glass 19 is a little bigger than what we're 20 asking for. 21 MS. THAYER: And that's a 22 split sign though, still? 23 MR. MARTIN: It's split. We 24 actually, you know, depending on 25 what the Board suggests, we could

24 2 make it a single or we can leave it 3 as is. 4 MR. TOHILL: What does that 5 mean? 6 MS. CARY WINCHELL: So Nick, 7 the -- 8 MR. McCULLEY: He's got his 9 building company on the bottom, and 10 his architecture thing on top. So, 11 it's - 12 MR. TOHILL: Well, how could 13 that be made single? 14 MR. MARTIN: Well, I could 15 just make one sign. 16 MR. THAYER: There's a 17 separation, a bar in there; right? 18 MR. MARTIN: Yes, exactly. 19 MR. TOHILL: Well, wait a 20 second. I'm not understanding. 21 MR. THAYER: No, the writing 22 of the architecture on top, and 23 then it's framed out with a -- 24 MR. MARTIN: That's right. 25 MR. THAYER: -- with a --

25 2 MR. MARTIN: What I could do 3 is, I could make -- 4 MR. THAYER: -- like, a 5 one-by-two. 6 MR. MARTIN: -- I can make 7 architecture on one side and then 8 building on the other -- 9 MR. TOHILL: Oh, on the 10 other. 11 MR. MARTIN: -- instead of 12 making it -- 13 MR. McCULLEY: See all this 14 (indicating)? 15 MR. TOHILL: Yes. 16 MR. McCULLEY: He's saying 17 he'll make it one. 18 MR. TOHILL: All right. But 19 the way you would do that is, you 20 would write Martin Architects AIA 21 on one side of the sign, maybe the 22 west side -- 23 MR. MARTIN: Yeah. 24 MR. TOHILL: -- and then 4MA 25 Builders on the other side.

26 2 MR. MARTIN: If for some 3 reason -- 4 MR. TOHILL: That's not 5 necessary. 6 MR. MARTIN: Okay. 7 MR. TOHILL: I mean, in my 8 opinion. That's not what the -- 9 that's not the evil the code was 10 seeking to render, let me put it 11 that way. 12 MR. MARTIN: Okay. I see. 13 MR. TOHILL: And I also -- 14 the notion that you do business as 15 two different businesses -- it's 16 still one sign. So you can say 17 Timothy McCulley, attorney at law, 18 notary public. 19 MR. McCULLEY: Exactly. 20 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, I know 21 that's true. 22 MR. McCULLEY: That's the 23 way I read the code, too. I 24 know -- 25 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, they're

27 2 both licenses. 3 MR. McCULLEY: -- John made a 4 clarification on that as to whether 5 or not that was constituting a 6 known -- 7 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Nick, 8 can I just clarify one thing? 9 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 10 MS. CARY WINCHELL: The sign 11 that's currently out there is not 12 the sign you're looking to -- 13 MR. MARTIN: No. 14 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Okay. 15 MR. MARTIN: I believe that 16 the new sign would be a bit smaller 17 than that one, yes. 18 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Okay. 19 MR. MARTIN: But roughly the 20 same design. 21 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Okay. I 22 did not get that design. 23 MR. McCULLEY: You didn't? 24 MS. CARY WINCHELL: No. 25 MR. McCULLEY: Well, you can

28 2 have that for the record (handing). 3 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Okay. 4 Because I don't have the 5 dimensions. 6 MR. McCULLEY: So you know, 7 if you do the balancing here or the 8 detriment, there doesn't seem to be 9 any. And for his benefit in order 10 to operate a legitimate business I 11 think this is the only place the 12 sign can go at this point. 13 And like I say, I don't 14 think it's going to be a 15 proliferation because if you ride 16 up the side of the street, this is 17 -- you know, there may be one just 18 to the west that could kind of fall 19 into that category, but after that 20 it's all open space. 21 MR. THAYER: So I guess 22 there's no opposition here. Any 23 other questions for him? 24 (There was no response.) 25 MR. THAYER: I think it's

29 2 pretty cut and dry. 3 MR. WHITE: Is the lighting 4 -- (inaudible) -- 5 MR. THAYER: John, anything? 6 MR. WHITE: Well, is -- the 7 lighting of the sign, is that part 8 of the same application? 9 MR. MARTIN: That would be 10 nice if you would allow me to light 11 it. 12 MS. CARY WINCHELL: There is 13 regulations in the code for 14 lighting a sign, and it's from 15 down, and there's a certain -- 16 MR. McCULLEY: A gooseneck, 17 and a very -- 18 MS. CARY WINCHELL: -- 19 certain wattage. 20 MR. McCULLEY: And the 21 lumens have to be within a certain 22 height. 23 MS. CARY WINCHELL: There's 24 nothing in here. There's nothing 25 asking for a variance, so I don't

30 2 think it's part of this 3 conversation. 4 MR. TOHILL: No. 5 MR. WHITE: No, I just 6 wanted to make sure -- 7 MR. TILLOTSON: So the sign 8 could be lighted? 9 MS. CARY WINCHELL: There is 10 regulation in the code for a 11 lighted sign. 12 MR. McCULLEY: But any 13 lighting that goes on there will 14 comply with the code. We're not 15 asking for a variance for the 16 lighting. 17 MR. THAYER: It sounds all 18 fine to me. 19 MS. CARY WINCHELL: I have 20 one question. What he presented, 21 which is a four-foot-six-inch 22 height by one-foot-eight inches, 23 that is the sign that the Board -- 24 I had heard discussion about -- and 25 I went out to get the measuring

31 2 tape -- about the size. That's the 3 size that's okay with you guys? 4 MR. THAYER: 4.6 by what? 5 MS. CARY WINCHELL: 6 Four-foot-six-inches, which is the 7 actual sign part height. 8 MR. THAYER: Right. 9 MS. CARY WINCHELL: And then 10 a one-foot-eight-inch width. 11 MR. WHITE: Oh, four foot. 12 I thought it was -- 13 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Well, 14 that's what I'm reading here 15 (indicating). This is -- 16 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, that is 17 from the ground. Four-foot-six -- 18 MS. CARY WINCHELL: I'm 19 sorry. I apologize. 20 MR. MARTIN: Four-foot-six 21 from the ground. We're just making 22 two sets of rectangles. 23 MS. CARY WINCHELL: So the 24 sign is 24, 26? 25 MR. MARTIN: Two-foot-four

32 2 by one-foot-eight. 3 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Okay. 4 That's the size? 5 MR. MARTIN: Yeah. 6 MS. CARY WINCHELL: As 7 presented? 8 MR. MARTIN: Um-hum. 9 MS. CARY WINCHELL: Okay. I 10 just wanted to clarify that. 11 MR. THAYER: It's 4.5 square 12 feet; right? Is that what it is? 13 MR. TILLOTSON: What, 4.5? 14 MR. THAYER: 4.5 -- 4.05 15 square feet. 16 MR. TILLOTSON: I thought 17 this was 3.8. 18 MR. MARTIN: Well, that 19 includes the lumber, and the sign 20 post, and everything. 21 MR. THAYER: That's the 22 total -- 23 MR. MARTIN: That's the 24 footprint. But the sign, itself, 25 is smaller. In other words, there

33 2 must be some way of holding the 3 thing up. 4 MR. THAYER: Framed. 5 MR. TILLOTSON: I mean, 6 personally, I think putting it out 7 by the street, it seems reasonable. 8 You want to keep the hedges. I 9 don't know, you lose all your 10 architecture. You don't see the 11 house by hedging it, if you're an 12 architect. 13 The size of the sign, I 14 don't know, that kind of bothers 15 me. It's not really that big, but 16 it's still -- we keep kind of 17 creeping. 18 MR. McCULLEY: But you know, 19 when you ride down -- and that was 20 the point of -- the other purpose 21 of the picture was, when you ride 22 down the street, this property is 23 so long that it really, visually, 24 the sign doesn't, like, hit you in 25 the face like the ARF sign does or

34 2 whatever. You know what I'm 3 saying? 4 In other words, when you 5 perceive it riding down the road, 6 it really doesn't look out of 7 place. 8 MR. TOHILL: Actually, the 9 history of the professional sign is 10 different from the history of the 11 retail sign. A professional sign 12 is understood to land in a 13 residential district. 14 You're about as far away 15 from a residential district, even 16 though you're zoned R-40, as a 17 person can imagine. Montauk 18 Highway from Queens to Montauk 19 Point is not residential. Not 20 anymore. 21 So, the notion that the sign 22 would be two square feet if you're 23 on Montauk Highway is a different 24 notion than if you were on even 25 Town Line Road, or on Parsonage, or

35 2 on Daniel's, or any of those 3 streets. 4 There, they don't want to 5 see a lawyer's shingle. They don't 6 want a big -- see a big sign for a 7 lawyer, or a doctor, or an 8 accountant. They want to see 9 little signs. 10 MR. McCULLEY: Neither does 11 the lawyer's wife by the way. 12 MR. TOHILL: Huh? 13 MR. McCULLEY: The lawyer's 14 wife doesn't want a big sign out 15 there either. 16 MR. TOHILL: That's probably 17 true. Anyhow, it's different, the 18 history. 19 MR. THAYER: Any other 20 questions? 21 (There was no response.) 22 MR. THAYER: Okay. 23 MS. CARY WINCHELL: And just 24 for the record, I did receive last 25 month, because this was an

36 1 Proceedings 2 adjournment from last month, the 3 affidavit of posting and the 4 affidavit of mailing. 5 MR. MARTIN: Thank you all 6 very much. 7 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank 8 you. 9 I guess we have no other 10 business; right? There's no other 11 business besides this one, Rhodi? 12 MS. CARY WINCHELL: That's 13 it. 14 MR. THAYER: Okay. Do you 15 have anything to add, Mr. Tohill? 16 MR. TOHILL: No. 17 MR. THAYER: We can make a 18 motion for adjournment. 19 MR. TILLOTSON: Second. 20 MR. THAYER: All in favor? 21 ALL: Aye. 22 (Time noted: 4:23 p.m.) 23 * * * 24 25

37 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 I, BARBARA D. SNYDER, a Notary Public 5 in and for the State of New York, do hereby 6 certify: 7 THAT the foregoing is a true and 8 accurate transcript of my stenographic notes. 9 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 10 set my hand this 11th day of January, 2013. 11 12 13 14 BARBARA D. SNYDER 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25