TRIBUNALE DI PERUGIA - CORTE D ASSISE Criminal Proceeding n. 8/2008 - Hearing of March 21st, 2009 Dott. Massei Dott.ssa Cristiani Dott. Mignini Dott.ssa Comodi Bertini Stefania Lioi Amalia President Associate Judge Public Prosecutor Public Prosecutor Chancellor Technical Auxiliary PROCEEDINGS AGAINST - KNOX AMANDA MARIE +1 PRESIDENT - We acknowledge the presence of the interpreter for Amanda Knox. WITNESS DEPOSITION - POPOVIC JOVANA THE WITNESS, CAUTIONED UNDER ARTICLE 497 OF THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, READS THE REQUIRED OATH PERSONAL DETAILS : Popovic Jovana, born May 1st, 1984 in Serbia. PROSECUTOR Dr Mignini QUESTION - Excuse me, do you know Raffaele Sollecito? QUESTION - How long have you been in Italy? ANSWER - From August of last year, approximately one year and a half. QUESTION - So, from August 2007? QUESTION - Are you a student? ANSWER - Yes, I am. QUESTION - What are you studying? ANSWER - I study Medicine. QUESTION - So, you know Raffaele Sollecito? 3
QUESTION - How long have you known him? ANSWER - He was almost one of the first people I met when I arrived. So, more or l less, a year and a half. QUESTION - When did you meet him? ANSWER - Could be September, October 2007. QUESTION - So pretty much a month after your arrival in Italy? ANSWER - Yes, maybe 2 months later, I do not know. QUESTION - Tell me, you knew him, how did you know him? ANSWER - He once came to my friends house, where I stayed, soon after I arrived in Italy. QUESTION - Do you remember if one of your friends introduced him to you? ANSWER - Yes, yes, a friend by the name of Giovanni, I was at his home, and he once came over ( meaning Raffaele) QUESTION - Where does this Giovanni live? ANSWER - Giovanni first lived in Corso Garibaldi, the same street where Raffaele also lived, so he (Raffaele) once came over. QUESTION - How many times have you met with him? ANSWER - But, really, 4 or 5 in all. QUESTION - Do you recall asking him for some help to accompany you? ANSWER - Yes, yes. QUESTION - Tell us everything you remember. ANSWER - Ok, it was maybe Thursday. QUESTION - So it would be ANSWER - I don t remember the exact date, I'm sorry, but, it was a year and a half ago, I don t remember the exact date. QUESTION - On the 12th of November 2007, you declared to the Flying Squad that it was October 31st? ANSWER - Yes, yes. QUESTION - So, practically... October 31st, November 1st? 4
ANSWER - Yes, at that point I remembered very well, but now the date. QUESTION - So, then, what happened? ANSWER - Nothing really, practically I needed a favour from someone to accompany me to the station, because my mom wanted to send me a suitcase. QUESTION - When did you mother call you? ANSWER - She called me on October 31st. QUESTION - So, did she need to send you something? ANSWER - Yes, yes, she wanted to send me a suitcase from Milan, because my mom lives in Milan. QUESTION - Send it how? ANSWER - With a bus which arrived at midnight, but at that point I was unaware that one could not send things this way in Italy so, I went by Raffaele to ask.. QUESTION - Did you first ask someone else and then asked Raffaele? ANSWER - Maybe so, I don t remember now, maybe I asked someone who owned a car. QUESTION - A certain Michele? ANSWER - Yes, yes he was the other friend. QUESTION - Do you remember now? ANSWER - Yes, I remember. QUESTION - Then, what did you do? ANSWER - Then, because Michele did not answer, or perhaps was unable to, my class was around 6:00 at Tre Archi. QUESTION - So this is November 1st, why does your mom call you on the 31st? ANSWER - Yes, but I spoke to mom twice, both the 31st of October and... Anyway, I talked many times with her. However, perhaps on the 31st she might have told me that she was going to send me things. At first I was looking for a person to help me get these things, anyway, I remember it was Thursday, I don t know if it was the 1st of November, it was Thursday, so November 1st. So, November 5
1st I went by Raffaele s home, could have been 5:45 pm, anyway, before 6:00pm because at 6:00 I had another appointment. I went to their home and asked them to please take me to the station. However, it was Amanda who opened the door for me, then I entered, and they were both there. QUESTION - How was Amanda dressed? ANSWER - I don t remember this, I do not know. QUESTION - So, what did Amanda say to you? ANSWER - Nothing, she let me in, I told her that I needed a favour from them, whether they could accompany my to the station. I was there maybe 3 minutes, the time to ask this and they said yes (they told me they would), and I left. QUESTION - But Raffaele, did you see him, did you speak to him? ANSWER - Yes, yes, I saw them both. She opened the door for me and I went inside, I think he was in the bathroom and after a moment he too came out. QUESTION - So, what time was your appointment? ANSWER - It was for midnight. My appointment was for 6 o clock, then to pick up the luggage the appointment was midnight. My appointment at Tre Archi was at 6:00pm and when I saw them (when I went to them) it could have been, I don t know, 15 minutes before 6:00. QUESTION - When was Raffaele supposed to accompany you, at what time? ANSWER - At midnight. QUESTION - At midnight, so from 1:00 to 2:00? QUESTION - Ok, what happened then? ANSWER - Then, nothing. I went to this lesson, my mom called me at 7 saying that she tried to send the suitcases but couldn t because the driver did not want to take them. So, I stayed at the lesson until about 8:20, then, on the way home I came back, in other words I went back to Raffaele s house. 6
QUESTION - Where do you live? ANSWER - I live upstairs, in Corso Garibaldi. QUESTION - But you were,.you took, do you remember what you did that afternoon, did you have a music lesson? ANSWER - Yes, yes, but that... QUESTION - Where did you take it? ANSWER - At Tre Archi. QUESTION - Then what? ANSWER - Then.. nothing, I had that lesson until about 8:20 in the evening. QUESTION - So, you left the house of Tre Archi around 20:20? ANSWER - Yes, around 20:20. QUESTION - On the 1st? ANSWER - Of the 1st, yes. QUESTION - That is Thursday? QUESTION - So, then what did you do? ANSWER - Nothing, I walked to Corso Garibaldi, there, as I was walking back, I went by Raffaele s house again. QUESTION - What time was it? ANSWER - Walking from Tre Archi to Corso Garibaldi takes about 20 minutes, so let s say approximately 20:40. QUESTION - What did you find? ANSWER - Nothing. Amanda still opened the door to me saying that Raffaele is still in the bathroom, in any case he did not come out himself but she invited me to come inside, still, I simply said I didn t need the favour any longer since my mom didn t manage to send the things, and I thanked her (Amanda). Anyway, I left. So, I didn t go inside. QUESTION - Excuse me, Amanda invited you to go upstairs? 7
QUESTION - Did she say Raffaele was upstairs? QUESTION - Don t you remember how she was dressed? ANSWER - No, I m sorry. QUESTION - Do you remember if she were happy, sad? ANSWER - She was very cheerful, that is, she was smiling a lot, very cheerful, whatever I said to her she would answer with a smile. QUESTION - So you told her you were not able to, and you told her to tell Raffaele that t there was no need for the favour any longer? ANSWER - Yes, yes, I told her just that. QUESTION - Did you go inside? ANSWER - The first time I did, the second time I did not go in. QUESTION - The first time, where did you enter, what room? ANSWER - In their room, I believe that was the only room, however they were both there. QUESTION - Kitchen? ANSWER - No, the computer was there, one of them, I think Amanda might have been writing something on the computer. QUESTION - Do you remember what computer that was? ANSWER - No, but I think... not that good, I don t think that was a Laptop, but I can t say for sure. QUESTION - So you did not., the first time you saw Raffaele coming out, where did he come out from? ANSWER - Out from the bathroom, I think. QUESTION - What about the second time? ANSWER - I did not go in. QUESTION - You did not go in, she invited you to go up, but you did not go in? ANSWER - No, I didn t go in, at the door always that. QUESTION - Then you left the house of Corso Garibaldi? ANSWER - Then I... QUESTION - So you stayed to talk to Amanda? ANSWER - Maybe 2 minutes, the time to tell her that I didn t need the favour (to be 8
accompanied) QUESTION - Did you notice if Amanda had a scratch on her neck? ANSWER - No, I have not seen it, maybe there was, but... QUESTION - Listen, then you left, have you ever seen them again? ANSWER - No. QUESTION - Ok, when did you learn of the crime? ANSWER - Maybe 3-4 days later, by chance, I was in Serbia so I saw this in the news. QUESTION - So you left, you went back to Serbia? ANSWER - Yes, it happened just like that, the Saturday after, two days later I left for Serbia, in any case, with the Italians. QUESTION - You stayed? ANSWER - I stayed almost a week, maybe 10 days. Then as soon as I got back I wentto the police station. QUESTION - Ok, to you she seemed.., you said Amanda was rather cheerful? QUESTION - But had you seen Amanda previous times? ANSWER - Well, I only saw her once before, but to me she always seemed very open. PROSECUTOR - No further questions. DEFENSE - Counsel Maori QUESTION - So, earlier, answering the Prosecutor s questions, you told the Prosecutor, and we heard that one of the first people you got to know was Raffaele Sollecito? QUESTION - How did you know Raffaele, in what way? ANSWER - I was, the first month I was living, not sure, the first 2-3 weeks when I arrived at my friend s home, my friend s name was Giovanni, then Raffaele came to Giovanni s home as a friend so we talked. Anyway, there is 9
where we met. QUESTION - How many times have you seen him? ANSWER - 4-5. QUESTION - So, there was a certain, maybe not a friendship, but a certain connection? ANSWER - Yes, once we went out together, once we went together to kin-box, once we saw each other there, I don t remember, 3-4 times. QUESTION - Let s get to the point, that is to the favour you asked Raffaele to accompany you to pick up the suitcase. In other words, can you tell us at what time the suitcase was supposed to arrive? ANSWER - The suitcase should have arrived, I mean, it was supposed to arrive at midnight. QUESTION - Where? ANSWER - To Piazza Partigiani. QUESTION - Arrive by? ANSWER - By bus, the name of which was., it starts with F. QUESTION - How would you have had to reach the place? ANSWER - excuse me? QUESTION - How would you have gotten there? ANSWER - Raffaele had a car, so I thought... QUESTION - So you asked him the favour to accompany you by car? ANSWER - Yes, yes. QUESTION - Where would you have left from? ANSWER - I do not know where the car was parked, there is a parking lot near the Universita per Stranieri (University for Foreigners) QUESTION - Did you arrange for an approximate time? ANSWER - We said... yes, midnight, maybe a bit earlier, because I had to be already there by then. QUESTION - So, let's say around 11:30? 10
QUESTION - Was that the first time you requested such a thing from Raffaele? ANSWER - To accompany me by car, I think yes, yes. QUESTION - Earlier, answering the Prosecutor s questions, you specified that you went to Raffaele s home to ask him a favour. Can you tell us exactly at what time you went there? ANSWER - The first time it was approximately 17:45, however, I am not sure about the exact minute but, let's say 17:45. QUESTION - Then, how much time did you spend in the house? ANSWER - Perhaps five minutes, the time to ask, because Amanda opened the door for me, I went in, asked Raffaele if he could accompany me, and he agreed. I then left. Anyway, because I had the 6:00 o clock appointment, so I couldn t. QUESTION - Was Raffaele willing to take you? Answer- Yes, yes. QUESTION - By any chance, did he tell you he might have had other other commitments, other things to do, or.? ANSWER - No, he didn t say anything. QUESTION - So, he made himself immediately available? QUESTION - However, the second time, when you said: I finished the lesson and then I went to Raffaele s home because I received the telephone call from mom. QUESTION - When she was telling you that the suitcase was not going to be arriving? QUESTION - Can you tell us what time it was when you arrived at Raffaele s house this second time? ANSWER - Approximately 20:40, thereabouts. QUESTION - How long where you there... did you go inside Raffaele s home? ANSWER - No, I did not go inside. (I did not enter) 11
QUESTION - Do you remember what Amanda was doing that very moment? ANSWER - No, because she came out, so I couldn t have known what she was busy with. However I saw her outside and I didn t ask her: what are you doing? I just let her know that I did not need the favour any longer. QUESTION - One last thing. Raffaele, did Amanda say what he was doing at that moment? ANSWER - I seem to recall Amanda told me he was in the bathroom, but I am not 100% sure. QUESTION - However, she said he was at home, obviously? ANSWER - Yes, yes, that he was home, she told he was there, and if I wanted I could go upstairs, but I cannot remember if she specified if he was doing this, or that. I think she told me he was in the bathroom. DEFENSE - Counsel Maori : Thank you. DEFENSE - Counsel Rocchi QUESTION - Just one question: did you know that, within days, Raffaele was supposed to graduate? Do you remember? ANSWER - No, I don t think I knew he was about to graduate. DEFENSE - Counsel Rocchi : No further questions. DEFENSE - Counsel Ghirga QUESTION - You went... we understand, you spoke about the 1st of November, you go home, then come back to Italy; when you return to Italy you go to the Police, or do you call them? ANSWER - No, no, I went myself because I could see how things were unfolding, I thought it was important. QUESTION - You also said that you consulted with friends, and with your mother, before? ANSWER - Yes, yes, okay. QUESTION - In short, you asked for advice? ANSWER - Yes, I asked what to do, because I didn t know how to behave in such situation. 12
DEFENSE - Counsel Ghirga : Thank you. DEFENSE - Counsel Dalla Vedova QUESTION - Excuse me, just a clarification, do you speak English? QUESTION - So, when you met Amanda were speaking English or Italian? ANSWER - Italian. QUESTION - So, you said exactly that the plan was that this suitcase was to arrive from Milan by a bus? QUESTION - Can you be more precise, how was it to arrive, by Coach line, by Courier? ANSWER - No, by bus, a bus that runs from Perugia to Milan. Some days it leaves from Perugia, other days from Milan but the time is a little unreliable, for instance from Perugia it always leaves at 5:30am, while from Milan to Perugia it arrives something like, midnight. It s a little inconvenient. Now, I don t know the name, the bus line starts with the letter F, I could have looked it up. QUESTION - It doesn t matter, it is however a scheduled service, is it not? QUESTION - Public? ANSWER - Yes, public. QUESTION - Did you say to Raffaele that that evening the bus was scheduled to arrive around midnight? ANSWER - Yes, I told him that. QUESTION - He immediately said I am available.. how did he respond? ANSWER - Well, they looked at each other for a small moment, then he said: Yes, yes. QUESTION - So he confirmed he would be available from midnight to 1:00 to pick up this suitcase? ANSWER - Yes, we agreed so. 13
QUESTION - Did the fact that it was a bit late create a problem? ANSWER - I don t think, no, I hope not, I don t know. We were all students, it wasn t a problem, I did not even think of that. Anyway, I went to ask him, and he said yes, so I was hoping to... it s not a problem since his response was yes. QUESTION - Tell me, instead, the first time you went to Sollecito s house at 5:45 and went upstairs, do you remember what the kids were doing? ANSWER - I think he was in the bathroom, he just came out when I arrived, I think Amanda was on her computer, one was at the computer writing something, I don t know what. QUESTION - Were you aware of the couple s program for the afternoon? ANSWER - No, I didn t know anything. When I asked him for this favour, we had not seen each other for maybe 3 weeks, we were not in touch daily and I didn t know their plans. So, when I went there, I simply asked for the favour and that was it. QUESTION - But you hanged out together with Sollecito and Amanda Knox, did you go out together? ANSWER - No, not all together, with Raffaele we saw each other some other times, once I saw him downtown, I was working as a promoter for a shop, Anyway, that was the first time the three of us met together, he introduced me to Amanda, but we did not talk longer than a minute. QUESTION - Tell me, instead the second time when you go at 20:40 and speak to Amanda Knox, were you aware of the of the couple s plans? ANSWER - No, not really. QUESTION - Did you ask Amanda Knox to do something together that evening? 14
ANSWER - I? QUESTION - Yes. ANSWER - No. QUESTION - Did you have a plan for yourself for the evening? ANSWER - No, no, nothing specific, I stayed at home. QUESTION - But did you not report this fact to Knox? ANSWER - That I was going to be at home? QUESTION - Yes, anyway, that it was your plan? ANSWER - No, no, we did not talk about anything, I was in a hurry. Also, I was a bit ashamed because it was the first time I was at Raffaele s house, also asking for a favour so, when I went there the first time I asked for the favour and that was it. The second time, I spoke to Amanda, thanked her, and did not even want to get inside, so it was a very short conversation, without asking what are you doing or plan anything together. DEFENSE - Counsel Dalla Vedova Very well, thank you, I have finished Mr. President. PROSECUTOR - Dr. Mignini QUESTION - There, do you recall when Raffaele introduced you to Amanda? ANSWER - When he... QUESTION - The first time? ANSWER - The day. QUESTION - The period, roughly? ANSWER - Perhaps two weeks prior to me going there to ask for the favour. QUESTION - So, roughly a couple of weeks earlier? ANSWER - Yes, a couple of weeks. QUESTION - From the 1st of November? 15
QUESTION - Are you sure about this, do you more or less remember, do you remember the occasion? ANSWER - Yes, I remember the occasion. I was the promoter for the Bialetti store, so if I were told that this was important, I could have I asked them what day it was they had the inauguration so, I also would have known the exact date. But now the exact date.. QUESTION - The opening of the store? ANSWER - Bialetti, which is situated on this street, a little further... QUESTION - Tell me, when you asked Raffaele to accompany you, did you tell him that this bus was going to arrive at midnight, where it would arrive? ANSWER - At Piazza Partigiani. QUESTION - Was Raffaele happy, available, or a little what was his attitude? ANSWER - He briefly thought, I do not know, anyway he agreed, but QUESTION - I argue that on November 12, in the statements you made to the Flying Squad, you replied Raffaele replied to me in a cold tone, in any case available. DEFENSE - Counsel Maori - I object to the question, because a cold tone is a judgement. ANSWER - I m sorry, I said that... PRESIDENT - Sure, cold tone, what did you mean? ANSWER - Because every time I met Raffaele he was always smiling, he was very much available; this time he might have been a little confused, I don t really know how to put it into words. I thought that this was due to the fact that there was a girl there, and that I was there, in his home, for the first time, so he might have been a bit 16
QUESTION - So, if I understand you correctly, you mean to say that he normally was available to demands (requests), and that time? ANSWER - He was also available this time. PRESIDENT - Were there other demands made to him prior to this one? ANSWER - No, no. PRESIDENT - There were never any. ANSWER - No. QUESTION - I try to understand, normally he was... this time he was a little bit uncertain. You told me so earlier, now there is no verbalization, but you said it, so I am trying to understand. ANSWER - Let s say that maybe he wasn t laughing quite as much PRESIDENT - Maybe on other occasions he was smiling more, you were referring to this? PRESIDENT - In this case, however, how did you perceive his expression, the attitude, the answer? ANSWER - Perhaps a little bit confused, maybe, not as open as always. PRESIDENT - How? ANSWER - Open as always. PRESIDENT - You were saying, on this occasion Amanda Knox was present? PRESIDENT - In previous occasions, was Amanda Knox there when you saw him smiling.? ANSWER - Only the time when we saw each other at.. PRESIDENT - When you were at Bialetti? ANSWER - Yes, yes. QUESTION - Then, I am trying to understand why you said that before. 17
On another occasion he was smiling, on this occasion he was a little different, you said. QUESTION - You said "perhaps because Amanda was there"? QUESTION - But you yourself perceived this? QUESTION - Is this true or not? ANSWER - It is true. Still, nothing strange about this. QUESTION - When DEFENSE - Counsel Dalla Vedova - The Public Prosecutor however, must continue the answer. Public Prosecutor - I thought the answer was complete. "Nothing unusual, she said. ANSWER - No, no. QUESTION - If you d like to say something else, I..? ANSWER - No, no. QUESTION - Indeed, please go ahead, speak. ANSWER - No. QUESTION - Well then, I thought you were done, as indeed you are. When you went back the second time and Amanda came to the door, so it was a very short conversation, you immediately said... Amanda invited you to go upstairs? QUESTION - Did she invite you upstairs? QUESTION - Did you feel they were having dinner? ANSWER - Honestly, I did not I think about what they could have been doing. Defense - Counsel Dalla Vedova : President, I am opposed to this. The question was whether she had perceived this. Perceptions are personal evaluations, it is not 18
the perception of an assessment. PRESIDENT - Let s clear the question. Were you standing in the doorway, or did you go inside? ANSWER - No, I'm always on the street... PRESIDENT - Is it 20:40? ANSWER - Yes, yes. PRESIDENT - It s 20:40, are you walking inside the house, or are you staying by the doorway? ANSWER - No, I stop right outside. PRESIDENT - What areas of the house are you able to see: the kitchen, the bedroom, the bathroom? ANSWER - At 8:40, but I do not see anything. PRESIDENT - No areas? ANSWER - No. PRESIDENT - Can you smell any particular odour? ANSWER - No, no, because the distance from the front door to the living area where they are, may be about 10 meters. PRESIDENT - can you not smell any special smell of cooked food? ANSWER - No, because I'm right outside, outside. PRESIDENT - The smell of some cooking in progress, do you not...? ANSWER - No. PROSECUTOR - Can you hear noises of dishes? The witness will have to report what she perceived. PRESIDENT - Noises of dishes, did you hear banging, I don t know, sounds of forks, spoons, plates? ANSWER - No, no, it's too far. PRESIDENT - You didn t hear anything? ANSWER - No, no, it's just impossible. QUESTION - How was Raffaele dressed? ANSWER - I don t remember. PROSECUTOR - No further questions. 19
PRESIDENT - But, this second time, did you see Raffaele Sollecito? ANSWER - No. Amanda told me he was at home, but I have not seen him. PRESIDENT - You saw only Amanda Knox and you don t remember what she was wearing? ANSWER - No, no, I'm sorry. PLAINTIFF - Counsel Maresca QUESTION - Initially, when you agreed to pick up the suitcase at midnight, how would the ride to the station have happened? That is, where would you have met, would you have gone back to Sollecito s house, would he have picked you up from somewhere, how was it? ANSWER - I believe I was to go by their place. Since I was... QUESTION - Do you believe or do you remember? That is, they give you their availability for midnight? ANSWER - Yes, yes. QUESTION - And, how do you agree to meet, we see each other here, we see each other? ANSWER - I know that, not 100%, but we had agreed to meet in front of their house. QUESTION - To then go to the station? Plaintiff - Counsel Maresca : Thank you. DEFENSE - Counsel Maori QUESTION - Miss, regarding the Prosecutor s question re. the conversation you had with Raffaele at 17:50, were you upset by Raffaele s words? ANSWER - Upset? QUESTION - Upset yes? 20
ANSWER - No. QUESTION - Ok, the tone, he had a cold tone of voice, why did you say that, maybe... ANSWER - I don t know... QUESTION - Let me finish. Was it perhaps suggested to you by the reporting officer at the moment of deposition? ANSWER - I tried to express that he may have been a little confused, so I did not even want to put.., I didn t know how.., because usually he was smiling a lot, he was very open; that time he was a little more, how to say, maybe me too, because I was shy (ashamed) to go to his house for the first time. QUESTION - The words cold tone which correctly are stated on record, words spoken by you on the 12th of November, were they suggested to you? ANSWER - The expression cold tone yes. QUESTION - Has it been suggested by the reporting officer? ANSWER - Yes, because I didn t know how to write. DEFENSE - Counsel Maori : Thank you. PRESIDENT QUESTION - Just a detail, did you have Amanda Knox s cell numbers? ANSWER - Not Amanda s. I had Raffaele s. QUESTION - Did Raffaele have yours? ANSWER - I think so. QUESTION - Were any calls made to these numbers during these days? ANSWER - During these days no, because I, I did not have a charge card. Before, yes. PRESIDENT - There are no further questions. The witness is dismissed. 21