-2^0 TAPE INDEX. Community House across the street, he played tennis and basketball., I,,,., i i i i I i ii i i i ir i

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1 Southern Oral History Program UNC Chapel Hill Ji" -2^0 TAPE INDEX SOHP Series Piedmont Social Hist. Pro.i. Transcription Priority: ]_ (1-Transcribe; 2-May Transcribe; 3-Do Not Transcribe) Interviewee: Phillips, Edward L. Last "* T r First Date of Interview: April 19, 1979 Place: Durham, N.G. Interviewer: Kenneth L. Kornblau Middle Total Number of Tapes: Cassette: C-45 2 C-60 Reel: 5" 7" C-90 Context of the Interview (e.g., study of a special topic, the interviewer's particular interests, focus of thecquestions,.anything^significant about thetsettingjor circumstances): See Attached Sheet List topics discussed in the order they occur on the tape. Tape # 1 Side A FAMILY BACKGROUND: Phillips grew up at Erwin Road and Oregon Street. At the Community House across the street, he played tennis and basketball. The Community House, I,,,., i i i i I i ii i i i ir i also had a pool and showed movies. His father was the plant superintendent at the older of two mills at Erwin Mills. Edward worked in the mill in the summers after he was 14. A native of Durham, he continued to live in the same family house, including a period during 1, i i, the (Depression when he was married and until he had two children. He was too old for World I J. _ Ii.,, I I I -. I! -...I I.... -»,,. Ill.--, I I I I. HI I.I.M.I ' I. I ' II- War II and too young for World War I.,... i i M i i _ -... i ^ ^ - ^ ^ " - i GENERAL DISCUSSION ABOUT SCHOOLS IN WEST DURHAM: Phillips attended Northside(E.K. Powe) i, -.,,,_,._ i i..,,.... i. school. His father owned his house, instead of residing in the low rent mill housing. Sixty per cent of the children at West Durham chool were mill families. Phillips can not, ll l I. I I I I l.. li II I. -- -I I. i. l ' I - I -.l - I II II II I MM Hill."- recall much social distinction between mill people and other people. He discusses the location of mill housing. He comments on the^quality of a highschool education at West Durham compared to the college preparatory program at Durham High. The principal at Best Durham, Harlan Holton, had high standards; he went on to be County School Superintendent and then a professor of education at Duke, ADDITIONAL COMMENTS RE SCHOOLS IN DURHAM: He notes that the city school district has mostly black students and that large areas of the city;are in the county school system. "And these I,..1, r \ _. people, regardless of their feeling about the race issue, they feel that when you get i "-' ' * ' i I I - ' predominantly black, you don't have as good a school system. And I suppose it's true,. The although Louis Round I think Wilson segregation Special Collections is wrong. Library, UNC-Chapel What they Hill. should have done was have one school system -

2 Tape #1 Side A one county union system." TAPE INDEX (continued) PHILLIPS EDUCATION AND CAREER: After E.K. Powe, Phillips attended Duke and graduated in the first graduating class in 192j. He remembers Maud Rogers, who was a fellow teacher at» ^ w» ^ a f c «i i II I I i i ^ wpw «w i nail am ^ w > w w < a N m m * Durham High School. Phillips was a classroom teacher for 16 years; a principal for 1? years; - I l l I I III I I II I I» III II! II II. Illl. II!!.... I I II ll«««- < I I I II I and an assistant superintendent for 11 years. First he was with the county schools, then with the city schools. iw i in mi i ii i w n i n ^» i!! ^i i mi IIII II«I i in i i i! ^ m m m m m w ; m m m n SEPARATION OF THE COUNTY AND CITY SCHOOLS: Phillips notes two reasons why the city and county schools did not merge. "At first when the city expanded, the city school system i ill I M l lllll«.^wmmiwm»<ml^i«*-mwiiii-mmi»wmwi»mimi»ww»mimm»m»wm»»j I..» W W I I M l I expanded also. Then they stopped expanding the city school district, because the people in in II ' "» -! in i i " H I ' ii ' win! «' mi - > i i n.mim an Mmmmm i the city would have to pay a supplementary tax. County people did not want to pay a higher tax. And then with integration they had another reason." HIS TEACHING EXPERIENCE: His classroom teaching experience was generally enjoyable. He taught five classes Give days a week. "I would probably have continued had the salaries been higher." He served as principal at lakewood Elementary School, at George Watts, at East Durham Jr. High School and at another Jr. High School. i i i i! I.I in.. i i " n "»! i HI ii ii.ii a ii. Mini. i i IIIIMIII in. i. i ' m w w w W W M ^ W ^ w y y. RE INTEGRATION: "Prior to integration, the state law required separate schools." Brown III 1 ' ii m» II in.hi III ' ii nil I '" m ^» I '» in». 1 II. I I I I I I.HI.MHIIW. i i M > II II. I.I. II ill II. I - ^ I vs Bd. of Education was in "It was a long time after that before the South had any integration." He remembers the first blacks in predominantly white schools in 1959, when he gas an assistant superintendent. "That was the beginning of integration on freedom of ' - i " mm i i i i ' ' nn nn in. i. II.I ^II II li-.mil ' i i».. * y H I i i choice." RE POSITION AS ASSISTANT SUPERINTENDENT: He was in charge of the curriculum and teaching process, but also he did whatever "the boss says." When the schools started getting federal i p i y i inn M W I M P i i x! m.. * * * * i i "i i i.*m mi m. i. i II...! a. ii i m i. i i «m i - ^ i i in..-m- w p i ^ II.I.ii money for special programs, Phillips sppervised applications for federal projects and I M W P 1 IIIIIII m i. -. i 1 )»» i i- II.I mm.! 1.1 in- MI mi im Hi n inmi.i 1 in i '"-"'I n I determined what to do with the money. The biggest amount of money came from Title I of I» ^ ^ - ^ II - MM I» ^ ^ I 1 1 ^ I I I - Illl II M 1 -i. - mi HI I.I I N - 1 " II I W n» I 1 - O. the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of Occasionally he employed teachers. n. ii n ill m. *n,l i.i I.1 I mm " - Hi II nil I-I.I I i-..- n i. II in. i.,... - I.I. I --.in ii... Mi I. mi I n i ii I. - i!-»- i «RE HIS FATHER"S WORK AT ERWIN MILLS: Phillips begins a story &bout Mrs. Cook, but he is in mi i i i i. - i., i. i i II , -... I.I,.,- i,.,- - in I.. i m..i n #, I I. -. i mm f» interrupted and turns his attention to an old photograph of his father, ^n& sfek crew'a't *$>, dye house at Erwin Mills. At that time his father was foreman of the dye house. Later hi Interview father number was in H-0220 charge in the of Southern the old Oral mill, History one Program of two Collection plants (#4007) at Erwin at The Mills. Southern Phillips Historical Collection, remembers

3 H ^ Nfl SOHP Series: Piedmont Social Hist. Pro.i. Interviewee: Edward L. Phillips ~JL+ U TAPE INDEX Bage 2 Date of Interview: April 19, 1979 (continued) i / Place:' Durham, N.C. LL ~ ~) "1, Interviewer: Kenneth Kornblau Tape # 1 M JsU) Side A that the workers respected his father. "They'd better in our presence. ' There were no unions. "I never saw any resentment." His father's job was to see that every job H ^ Illl I I II I I I IIHI 1 IM I W. I I M I M» ^ ^., ^ ^. ^. M. ^ ^ H M i l M ^ ^ was manned. "He was not an engineer; he had native administrative ability." -.-..! mi IIII i i i **»»! ii,mmmmmmm '* mmmmm HI n mmmmt m imww mi w * *mmmmm i i i i n» RE HIS FATHER'S BACKGROUND'* His father was from Alamance County, a rural area. "He was just a farm boy who went to town and got a job in a mill." Hisfather was born during the Civil War (1863) in «.. I I I I M I M P» I I 1 1 mwwii**m*m^**w**wi'm*i""w**i-*iii*"* "»*'*i^ off fighting the war." Phillips comments that his grandfather was "not a loyal Southerner, not ) iii mm IIMIIIIIIM a M MWMMW MWt I. M I i M '» iimmniwi n ii i in I n Ii ' i MILIUM n m»i m I I H I M " I m-nii 1 W 1HMW»! nni II I RE WEST DURHAM: A sense of community was fostered by the Community House, where there were many activities. It was not necessary to be connected with the Mill in order to participate. He played TAPE 1 SIDE B tcyy. on a basket ball team there, : Phillips remembers that the Community House was closed down when Erwin Mills changed ownership, because by then the city was providing a recreation program. I I I 1 II II ~ I I I I I I -" l i t I II II I I I I I I I Ml I Kornblau asks him about an unusual story about a one-legged baseball player. Phillips confirmed the story and rememberd playing with him. "He was a good athlete, even though he i mil i i in i i n iiii i. i ^ ii i in i. -.in -i, - in P in in»i i i n i < II M H. M I ^ >. * I M M J H was handicapped." Phillips discusses the North Carolina Olympic games, which raised money to buy an artificial leg for the handicapped player. people who had taught there. As a child Phillips knew very little about Southside school; later he knew II ' ' '- ii" ' ii II - i i i i i ^.. ^ i. I.I I, ^ I - ^ ^ ^ M. i P ^ i i tm i «w i 'i H i RE HIS FATHER'S EXPECTATIONS FOR HIM: "I was definitely not interested in working in a I I I I M I II I -!..-. I ii H i.. - I. W I II ll-lll-lll. I - i» ' H II I.1 II - Ml I M - n Mil I!! M P» cotton mill." He thought about law, but Phillips was the sixth of eight children in his I ' ' "" II i ' iii- i ^.mm.i HI.u.i m ^ - ^ ' w ^» ^»»» i i., nun- PI-II..IIII-I..-..«p m - «.I..I - I.I - i! mi W W I im i family, all of whom went to college; four graduated from Duke. "Father left it up to me." i, II i -- - i - i - i ' -- - i i At 20, Phillips graduated from Duke with a major in economics. He got a<\m.a. in political science. He did not go on to graduate school to be a college teacher, because he was married and his "family started growing.... There weren't as many grants as there are now." He had a job in another city, but when his father had a stroke, he returned to Durham. He took the only available job, teaching in one of the county schools. He stayed in Schools for 43 years. (They discuss other teachers and Kornblau's career plans)

4 1 TAPE INDEX (continued) Tape # i Side g RE PHILLIP'S FAMILY: Phillip^ tried to persuade one of his sons to go into teaching after he returned from the peace Corps, but "he wouldn't go." Phillips had " ' '. * ' ' '...i. i......,. -, ' four children. His oldest son is a commercial geologist, the next., son is a chief, warrant. '. officer in the Army; the youngest son lives in Nashville, has a M.A. in English, wrote' poetry and is against the war in Vietnam. His daughter, his third child,is married to an " i... i _ -...,. t. f.. v,, j- - -,,, _ Sir Force major. (Tney discuss Kornblau's family.) Phillips remarks that daughters are ' i. i II Mini- ii i ii ii I I mi 111 n«i tmmwmmtmmm*.. in.. m. i i n. m mmmmmwmlm inn miw main! i II i mimkjitmtm'mtmmmm^r^imt^mmtmmmmmm 4 '» i i mmmmmmmfmmmmmmmmm)mmm "a civilizing influence around the house." RE THE "PLATOON SYSTEM" AT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL: At George Watts Elementary School,.the platoon system divided the day into ten thirty-minute periods. "Many teachers hark back to that as the good old days." But Phillips found tut that teachers didn't like all the bells in - n i wi- ii in m w < i i tm m taw p i i- I I PII! Mn.li 1 i.i n i II M W i li^iiirm~m-m*m*-~wi*^^m*m*mh^*******m~*''~*-~~'*~ *^*-~i*yiiii 11 I.I and the short periods. Phillips changed back to the traditional system in /tte was the» m i iii i^ i i.i ii. - ^. ^. -..». I... ^ P ^.. J ^ I I I I,i i. M I i HI. i.. n ^ ^ ^m^^^m^m-m^^^m^*^*m^mm~^ ^ ^ t**~m~ ^ ^~-* mm^*^1*m* ~^mm^^*k^^^^ pnncipa_y "Well these theories come and go in education."... "I don't know what is the best gsystem; the best system is to have good teachers." RE THE "COOPERATIVE CLASS": The "cooperative class" was built around the paiasi"i I L~ T~ %, Miss Maud Rogers, an unusual person. All of her highschool students had.jobs; she taught all subjects, if they cou]&i't attend regualr classes. nil I II I I V I ii I ii I - I. ill ' II I I ii I I I I II I I II ^m in II II I - I II ll.i III I II I ml I- pjn.il-i I H- I! null I ill RE WEST DURHAM: "We always thought that West Durham was different from the'average mill i -* I,.; iui 1.11 ii I,.11 ill.- ill I. I m^m - ii il.ii - I I i I II. I II I* I I i I I i " " 1 i ^ - m II 1 " I '! 1 ' - village, " because of the influence of the city of Durham. Phillips remembers W.A. Erwin, the head of Erwin Mills as paternalistic. Although Phillips couldn't prove it, he and -i i --...,-. i i \jlmm in i i i,n.n. i i II. i in. nii-.i in i-! i ii ' N.-II!! -H I I - i-.i.iii,.i,..a. i. I, i mm**m*mmmmwmmwmm mmmwmm others believed that the wages at Erwin were "perhaps better than at other cotton mills.. n.i-ni-1 - null II i. I-I i. i - i II i i II.. i I I i i J M i HI I.I -- II i iui i- ^ m I... M. I H H H M I I m»m MM in the South." He remembers an empikyee was fired for being publically drunk. Erwin " - i -.in.,.. i.-. i ii i i i III. ii. 1 H-i,,....,,.li. -i i IIII.i ' i,- -,., - i, iiimi ii would address the crowds at Erwin Park and tell them that "they weiehis people." Saturday.. II. II I I.!,.-! -- I I I,.i.. -, II Ml I, l. I.., I. Ill I I.. -. Mill. HI II.II... I I III II!, IIIIIM.. I. IMPipil II night band concerts were sponsored by the mill. MI i in.....i i. i.-ii,i ii MI ini-.il i mi- i.ii-. in- i M wi - ii tmmmmmmm i - " «M " «m» -.!»i i >-! m RE TRANSIENT MILL WORKERS: Phillips didn't know, but he thought that there were very.few transients working at the mill. Most of the West Durham residents grew up there. Erwin's i I.I ' - II in. i n ii i i -mi ii -! i! HI l I. l l! mi ' - «m f I Ml III paternalism, "essentially he meant well." "He(Erwin) thought they weie-better off working for him than they were working in the cigarette factory." RE EDUCATION: In his career, Phillips has seen changes. "I think there is too much Interview administration." number H-0220 He in the has Southern coined Oral "Phillips' History Program law" Collection after (#4007) Parkinson's at The Southern law. Phillips Historical law Collection, states

5 SOHP Series:pjedmint Social Hist. Proi, I _ ~ K Interviewee: interviewee: Edward m.waro. L. JU. Phillips yniiiips LJ-/^ TAPE INDEX Bage 3/ _ 1/1/^ate of Interview:April 19, 1979 i (continued) ft V ^Tlace: Durham. N. C. Interviewer: Kenneth L. Kornblau Tape #1 " Side B that "the amount of learning is inversely proportional to the number of experts i -. i.i M i l mi IB.,, M IIMII i- ii ii ii i m i..ii i-11.i.i» i n in, I M * * *» i m.» ^employed in the central office." 3)9 2 RE EDUCATION cont.: He notes the increase in educational staff despite a decline.in population. This is true of industry too,"too many non-productive jobs." Phillips found that being a principal was more satisfying than being an assistant principal, because you're in charge. The classroom was satisfying. RE DROP-OUTS FROM SCHOOL: Phillips wasn't aware of a drop-out problem, until he was a llll.l. I.. -, I I I HMII. II I I. J M., I I I I I I I HI I I p I 1. I I I I * * * * * * * * * * * * junior high school principal. "This would be heresy... I don't think it harmed me to i II., MII II. I i i i i ii i ill i IM PM** il i.i,, -ii..1 n,. I. I i,i.. I II II m i l II 'I H I M work in the mill when I was 14." Drop-outs "ought to be allowed to go to work."... "Ho - i.i -, =i..im.i I II I M» I M. I I M ^ ^^^^ -i 1 I IM M^M W*W**JM**P***M*M*M*P WP* Ml! M i one wants to admit that drop-outs cause trouble." i mi II.ii n i i-i.ii...-..i.i -mi mi **» * i in. i. I M i.,1,i. I,. i w» - m i i ^ ^ i a t m m m m m t m m m m m m m m m ^ m m m m m m RE HIS TEACHING CAREER: Phillips has been retired for nine years. He thinks teachers -,,..-.in.... im i i,... i II m.in., i-i-i i, in,,.,, i i i. i mil P»P***P*PP»P «*~ i mmmmmmpmrn M»^M are respected by people in the community. He had greater satisfaction, because he lived i i II i. - in i i i. i,-, - i.i.i- -!.I'll i' i mi H I " i i ' I I i--i.il i i in.- in II. i l I p "I * * so long in Durham. Some teachers mark time. I I..i.i.i m. I i -I I n II I I - il I p MM I I i - I - in -I ii M M I I l ii-im I M M ^. M M End of Interview 1

6 TAPE INDEX (continued) Tape # Side f -