The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian

Transcription

1 1 sur :36 ISSN: Volume 2, Issue 5 (5 October 1999) The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian Introduction First Session, Part 1 First Session, Part 2 Second Session, Part 1 Second Session, Part 2 Third Session,

2 2 sur :36 Part 1 Third Session, Part 2 Fourth Session Second Session, Part 2 TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE Second Session of October 25, 1974 Explanations 2 1. F: nitafunga hii sasa: tutarudia na matableaux yote: T:...?... F: na tunaendelea vile: mara ingine maneno niko na mauliza/[sic] T:...?... ahah/ F: sawa vile tulifanya ile: T: ah/ nitaweza kusikia?... minasema ii franga uko nauzaka naye bitu ii/ F: aah/ T: paka yako wee moya? F: ndiyo ni paka yangu/ T: yee haitoke: fasi ingine? F: hapana: ni ya: ni yetu tu/ T: ah ah ah ah ah ah... F: kumbe inafaa: twende polepole/ bon/ tulimaliza donc: eh: T: ou bien nitaweza kufansia cinq: cinq? F: non non: fanya tu: fa: ufwate: mawazo yako/ T: aah/ eeh/ ile tunataka: [claps] ile tulilomba: ni histoire complète ya Zaire/ T: kweli eh? F: tena: mu ngambo ingine T:...?... F: utaweza kufanya tu matableaux matableaux matableaux: non/ ile eko nécessaire: T: iko/ F: oui/ T: ah sawa ile minapanga apa/ F: ile: kila tableau: eko lazima: TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE Second Session of October 25, 1974 Explanations 2 1. F: I am going to turn this on now, let's go back to all the paintings. T:...?... F: And this is how we'll go on because sometimes I have questions. T:...?..., I see. F: As we did this [other batch of paintings]. T: Ah, could I listen [to the tape]? 1...what I am saying is: the money with which you buy these things [his paintings]... F: Yes. T:...is it just your own? F: Yes, it's just my own. T: It doesn't come from somewhere else? F: No, it's just ours. T: Ah, ah, ah, ah...[incredible] F: So we should go slowly. Alright, we finished -- wait... T: I could also do five[paintings] each time, should I? 2 F: No, no, go ahead, just follow your thoughts. T: Ah, alright. What we want [claps], what we asked for, is the complete history of Zaire. T: Really? F: On the other hand... T:...?... F: You could go on endlessly painting pictures, no [that is not the idea]. Just to what is

3 3 sur :36 T: eeh/ F: utafanya/ T: kwa kuona unaona iko na lazima yote hii eh? T: aah/ F: ni...?... uendelee tu paka kule/ kumbe: tulimaliza: wee ulimaliza: arisi: ya kipande ya pili/ T: ya pili/ F: mm? tulitoka: sawa ku Colonie Belge: fimbo: sawa vile banapika: T: bon/ F: na tulifika: mwisho: protestation des femmes Katangaises/ T: aah/ F: mm? T: bon/ F: kati ya: wakati ya Katanga/ T: mm/ F: sasa: tulifanya sawa vile tulifanya ile: siku ingine: nitaangaria kila: tableau: eh? T: bon/ ça va/ 2. F: naaa: ah: nitakuuliza [rummages with paintings, walking away from microphone]: mbele: fimbo [picks up Painting 34: Colonie Belge: Under Belgian Rule]/ T: mm/ F: nazani hatuna: mingi ya kusumbulia maneno...?... tu zamani: T: ah oui/ F: uli: T: isha kuelezea...?... F: oui ulinielezea/juu ya nini ulichagula terri: territoire: ya Kambove? T: sichagule territoire ya Kambove hapana/ kwa sababu matableaux mingi/ F: eh/ T: ile ilikuwa baati ya tableau kumuuzisha mwee ya territoire ya Kambove/ kuko yaa: Kakanda: eeeh necessary. T: Here it is. F: Yes. T: Like those that I lined up here. F: [In this sequence] every painting is needed. T: I see. F: You'll do it. T: When you look at it, you see that everything is as it should be, right? T: I see. F: It is...?... just go ahead [with that painting] there. So, we finished, or rather you finished with the story of the second part. T: Of the second part. F: Right? We started with the Colonie Belge, where they use the whip. T: Fine. F: And in the end we got to the Katangese women protesting. T: Yes. F: Right? T: Fine. F: The time of [the secession of] Katanga. T: Mm-hmm. F: Now we are going to do it like the other day, I will look at each painting, right? T: Fine, go ahead 2. F: Let's see, I am going to ask you [rummages with paintings, walking away from microphone], first about the whip [picks up Painting 34: Colonie Belge: Under Belgian Rule]. T: Mm-hmm. F: I don't think we have a lot to talk about because...?... long ago... T: Ah, yes. F: You... T: already explained...?... F: Yes you explained things to me. Why did you decide write "District of Kambove" on the building.? T: It was not a matter of selecting the district of Kambove. There are many of these paintings... F: Yes. T:...and it just so happened that I sold to you the one of the

4 4 sur :36 mm: Sakania: Lodja: Matadi: F:mm/ T: materritoires yote tu nazani ya Zaire nitaweza kufanya: p: sawa ilipatikana mule/ T: ao ville/ nitaweza kufanya tu/ F: tena tunaona: territoire hapa: mugini kule/ T: ni kweli/ F: njo mu: njo mugini? T: ile aina mugini: ni camp ya bapoliciers/ F: camp ya bapoliciers/ T: eeh/ T: sababu vile karibu na kazi/ F: na bale..?... na policiers bo: kila: eko na kazi yake/ T: kila policier iko na kazi yake/ asubui huyu ataweza F:...?... T: kulamusha bote: lamukeni: saa inenea: T: banalamuka/ F: na huyu? T: ule: eko nafukuza ule mbio: T: anakimbia fimbo: anakimbia buloko/ T: kamata yee: yee iko nakimbia ku pori/ ule njo natosha manguo:?kusudi 1 nayee alale pale eko ku rapport/ bamupikie fimbo/ F: tena: bale banabeba: T: banabeba ile banabeba: ni mavi/ F: mavi? T: eeh/ sababu batu ya buloko eh? F: aah/ T: banawakawa banafunga ku mulango: bananyambaka ndani ya tuku moya/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ kunyamba kule: et puis asubui: kutakuwa batachagula batabeba ile: na kwenda kutupa: F: T.P.M.? T: T.P.M. c'est à dire eh: Travaux: Publiques: ya et Mécanisation/ T: [chuckles] ni vile/ F: na bale wanamuke mbili/ T: banamuke mbili ni banamuke ya batu ya buloko/ sawa vile balileta district of Kambove. Others are of Kakanda, Sakania, Lodja, Matadi. F: I could do all the districts or towns of Zaire, because there were prisons in all those places. T: Or the one in town, I could do that one. F: So we see the building of the district commissioner here and over there a village. T: That is correct. F: I that a village? T: No, that is not a village, it's the police barracks. F: The police barracks. T: Yes. T: Because it is close to their place of work. F: And those...?...and the policemen, each of them had his work. T: Every policeman had his work. In the morning, one would... F:...?... T:... wake up all the prisoners: "Wake up, it is time!" T: And they would get up. F: And this one? T: He is pursuing that prisoner... T:... the one who is trying to run away from the flogging and the prison. T: "Get him" [the policeman shouts], "he is taking to the bush!" Another policeman is making a prisoner undress 3 to make sure he is lying down when the roll call comes and he will get his flogging. F: And those there, what are they carrying? T: What they are carrying is shit. F: Shit? T: Yes, because when the people are in prison... F: Yes. T:... they are made to stay behind locked the doors and they relieve themselves in a vat. T: That is where they relieve themselves. Then, in the morning, comes the moment when some of them

5 5 sur :36 chakula: ii ni chakula ni kibakudi 2 are picked out to carry the stuff ya chakula: and throw it out. F: [And what is] T.P.M.? T: ii ni chupa ya maji: T: T.P.M., that is the Public Works and Motor Pool. T: asema tukabapatie asubui: banakuta bwana beko napika: unaona T: [chuckles] That's what it is. umu mwenye bwana nabamba mu mukono F: And those two women? ku lichafu 3 T: Those two are the women of anasikitika/ huyu nayee prisoners. They are there because eko nasikitika: hatujue bwana yake they brought food. This is food, a hapa kama ni ule: kama ni ule: bowl of food. T: nayee anasikitika vilevile/ T: This is a bottle of water. mm/ hapa huyu muzungu: T: na pipe yake iko anakunywa: T: "Let us bring them [a bowl of sawa vile unaona policier na food and a bottle of water] in the numéro matricule yake: morning," they had said, and then they found the husband of one of T: sawa mu temps Belge ilikuwa: them being beaten. You see here kila policier na numéro matricule/ his wife as she puts her hand to F: eyo/ her cheek, in a gesture of T: kama anakufanya maneno ku njia: distress. And the other one is wala nakusema leta makuta: sad, too. We don't know which of unakamata paka numéro matricule: the prisoners is her husband. wee unakwenda/ T: But she is sad, too. T: bon/ utakwenda kufika kule kwa mukubwa: unapeleka: 4 Mm-hmm. And now to this kuko policier white man here. moya: unamuyua/ numéro yake yo T: Smoking his pipe. And then you hii/ batamuita paka yee: banakuya see the policeman with his badge kumusambisha/ number. F: c'est vrai? T: aah/ T: Because, when the Belgians ruled, every policeman had his badge number. T: If he caused you trouble on the road, or asked you for money, you would just take down his badge number and go away. T: Right, you would go to his superior and complain. [You would say] that there is a policeman and that you know him: "This is his badge number." He would be called in and be made to face the charges. F: Really? T: Yes. 3. F: sasa tunafika ku: ile numéro: trente quatre: Pétillon/ [Painting 35: Pétillon Giving a Speech] Pétillon yee mwenyewe/ Pétillon alikuwa nani? T: Pétillon alikuwa Gouverneur Général/ 3. F: Now we come to number thirty-four 4 : Pétillon [Painting 35: Pétillon Giving a Speech]. Who was Pétillon? T: He was Governor General. F: Governor General.

6 6 sur :36 F: Gouverneur Général/ T: mm/ sawa vile chef de l'état/ alikuwa anikala ku: Kinshasa/ F: [reading from painting] à la résidence du premier bourguemestre de la ville de Jadotville/ T: mm bon/ F: njo kule alifika? T: njo kule alifika/ F: hii ni: minaona ile monument ya: T: ile maboules? F: maboules/ T: eeh/ iko napatikana/ kama unatembea ku: Likasi: unaingia mu résidence: ya: premier bourgeme: ya commissaire sou: sousrégional: F: eh/ T: utakutanisha ile/ F: ni quoi? maana yake ni nini? T: non: ilikuwa babelges baliachaka/ mi sijue kama ni maana yake ni nini/ F: baliyenga wakati gani? T: baliyenga wakati: ile baliyenga ile: T: résidence/ ii ni ya résidence/ F: résidence aah/ T: couleur yake ni vile minaonaka/ F: aah/ T: hii manyumba ile: ni ku mpembeni: puisque lupango ile hapite/ huku ni ku mpembeni: T: ni: uku chini tunataka kama ku Zoute/ kuko Zoute ya Likasi/ F: Zoute? T: eh: kuko: bassin/ F: bassin/ T: bassin aah/ F: ahah/ T: kama unafwata hii njia unapita hii?mayani: utafika ku route: ku bassin/ ku mukongo ya hii nyumba kuko pilerie: T: na ile: COMEKAT: ya zamani/ F: sasa minaona bazungu banatoka: T: na bitu ku mukono: tomates: F: aah/ T: beko natupa: ingine nafika napasuka ku ya ku pete: ingine ku mukono: T: eeh/ banakatala ile maneno asema tunakatala sana/ atuweze?...itshika hata/ F: yee alisema nini? T: Mm-hmm. Something like head of state, and he lived in Kinshasa. F: [reads from painting] At the residence of the lord mayor of the town of Jadotville. T: Mm-hmm. Right. F: That is where he arrived. T: That is where he arrived. F: I see a kind of monument there. T: Those spheres? F: Spheres. T: Yes. It's still there. If you travel to Likasi and get into the mayor's, sorry, the subregional commissioner's residence, you'll find it. F: Really. T: You'll find it. F: What is it? What is its meaning? T: No idea, it is something the Belgians left behind. I don't know what it means...5 F: When was it built? T: It was built at the same time when they built... T:... the residence. It belongs to the residence. F: The residence, I see. T: It's color is as I see it. T: These houses are outside, the grounds [of the residence] don't go that far. [The scene] here is on this side [of the enclosure]. 6 T: The place down here we call Zoute 7, this is the Zoute of Likasi. F: Zoute? T: Yes, there is a swimming pool. F: A swimming pool. T: A swimming pool, yes. T: If you follow that footpath, passing that greenery, you come to the road that leads to the swimming pool. Behind those houses is the crushing plant... T:... COMEKAT 8, as it used to be called. F: Then I see that the Whites have come out. T: And they have things in their hands, tomatoes. F: Aah.

7 7 sur :36 T: yee alisema kama: Baudouin alinituma tena/ F: eh/ T: na mambo ile aliniachiaka ile wakati/ T: anapenda mukule na batu: mukunywe: ou bien munakatala tu? F: aah/ T: tubape Indépendance bashi/ F: eeh/ T: yee asema: kama ni vile: toka na hii Indépendance: ou bien na mambo yenyee yote ile: atupende apana/ F: eyo/ T: njo kumupika: nani/ 4. F: sasa mu trente cinq tunaona: ts: mu: Lumumba: [Painting 36: Lumbumba, Director of a Brewery] T: [reads from painting] directeur: F: directeur: T: de brasserie: F: de Stanleyville/ T: de Stanleyville/ F:...?... T: ni kweli: iko directeur wa brasserie: T: ile wakati: wakati tulikuwa u: mu butumwa: nazania hata grade ya: bamilitaires: haikupita mu sergeant/ tulikuwa tu basergeants: caporal: c'est fini/ T: njo vile ilikuya tu/ na kama muntu ile wakati grade ile: ni muntu wa akili mingi/ kwa kuenea kuwa général: kwa kuenea kuwa muntu moya wa kitu munene: T: na akukuwa mufano hata moya/ mm/...injustice ile: F:...?... T: They are throwing [tomatoes]: one of them has burst on Pétillon's shoulder, another on his arm. T: Yes, they categorically reject what he has been telling them, saying: "There is no way we can accept this." F: What did he say? T: He said: "Baudouin has sent me..." F: Yes. T: "... to take care of the matter he left unfinished at the time [when he visited]." T: "He wants you to eat and drink with the Blacks. Or do you refuse [to do this]? Actually we should give them Independence." T: "If that's how it is to be," someone said, then get lost with this Independence and all that. We don't like it." F: Really. T: So then they pelted him with what do you call them [tomatoes]. 4. F: Now, on number thirty-five, we see Lumumba [Painting 36: Lumumba, Director of a Brewery]. T: [reads from painting] Director. F: Director. T: Of a brewery. F: [continues reading] Of Stanleyville. T: Of Stanleyville. F:...?... T: It's the truth, he was director of a brewery. T: In those days, we were slaves. I think, even in the army, nobody reached a rank higher than sergeant. We were sergeants, corporals, and that was it. T: That is how it used to be. In those days, a person may have been competent to be a general or occupy some position of importance. T: But there was simply no way. Mm-hmm. It was this sort of injustice... F:...?...

8 8 sur :36 T: njo banasikia: batetela balitomboka: balifanya karévolte/ na pa lufu ya Kamakanda vilevile/ F: nayee anaikala tu bien/ T: anaikala mu bureau: mukono anaweka pa kiti sawa hivi: kiti: T: mm/ eko anasumbulia: eh: anaikala pardon: eko nacheka: na pose ya kucheka: T: mu mafoto: na mukanda yake ile aliandika pale: anasigner: anawaza kuituma fasi fulani/ na kitabu ya brasserie: ya Congo Belge: T: na mafardes...?... na téléphone pale:/ na book notes: c'est à dire: kitabu ya: notes/ T:...?...kukalaka book notes: ni ya book notes: sawa...?... [chuckles] [chuckles] T: na maenveloppes mbili/ kule ile ni rideau/ ni ku dirisha/ F: ndiyo/ T: inje pale: njo inye usine: kama ni usine ou bien kama ni nini: ya: F: ya brasserie/ T: ya brasserie/ ni usine eh? F: [pointing] tundu moya/ T: ayi/ na tundu ni kal: ni nguo/ F: ni nguo/ T: sawa pa kukota: wee unapenta: yo ina: tokelea tundu: F: [chuckles] T: o làlà/ 5. voilà: ni ku kiwanza: [Painting 37: Lumumba Meets Kwame Nkrumah] F: sasa: numéro trente six: ni ku kiwanza: T: ni ku kiwanza: ku Ghana: F: ku kiwanza wapi? ku Ghana? T: ku Ghana/ T: sawa sijue drapeau ya Ghana: njo maana sikuweza kuweka apa T:... that made the Tetela rise up and stage their little revolt. And it was also at issue in the death of Kamakanda. F: But he [Lumumba] is well installed. T: He sits in his office, his arm rests on the chair. T: Mm-hmm. And he is talking and, if you permit, sits there with a smile, in a smiling pose. T: [As it appears] in photographs. And there is a letter he wrote and signed and is going to sent somewhere. There is the book of the brewery of the Belgian Congo. T: There are files, a telephone, a note-book, that is a book of notes. T:...?...so there are book notes, a book of notes, like...?... [chuckles]. F: Mm-hmm [chuckles]. 9 T: And two envelopes. There is a curtain at the window. F: Yes. T: And there, outside, that is the factory, if this is the correct terms, or whatever it is. [The plant] of... F:... the brewery. T: Of the brewery. It's a factory, right? F: [pointing] There is a hole [in this painting]. T: Oh, a tiny 10 hole, its [in] the fabric. F: It's [in] the fabric. T: When you paint, you pull the [the fabric] and then a hole appears. F: [chuckles] T: Sorry about that. 5. This is on a runway [Painting 37: Lumumba Meets Kwame Nkrumah]. F: Now, number thirty-six, it's on a runway. T: It's on a runway in Ghana. F: Where on a runway, in Ghana? T: In Ghana. T: Because I don't know the flag of Ghana I could not put it here.

9 9 sur :36 lakini/ kama nilifahamu kama naliandika/ T: bon/ na vile: banamupokelea: Lumumba/ kuko Kwame Krumah: alikuwa président ile wakati: na kisha yake alikufa mu Guinéa:...?.../ et puis ule ni mugeni nayee alitoka ku ile avion: iko na sacoche yake: anaandikapo Ghana: anachuka: 5 mm/ F: na banakamata: avion de Swissair? T: Swissair/ njo iliweza kutembea ile wakati/ T: sawa...?... natembea na Sabena: baliweza kufumbula mayele yake...?... kutembea nayo/ F: aah/ T: Swissair: na sasa hapa inatembeaka vilevile/ kipande yote ya: ya Afrique: orientale ou bien occidentale/ [dog is barking: aside] nazani muntu anafika: T: mm/ F:...?... T: mm/ F: simama kiloko/ [recording interrupted] 6. F: tuendelee na: kama ni numéro: trente sept/ [Painting 38: Kasavubu is Elected Mayor] ni kusema: T: trente sept? F: Kasavubu sasa: anaonekana sawa: bourguemestre/ T: ah anaonekana bourguemestre/ bon: ni wakati ile: ni ya cinquante huit eh? T: sawa nilikuelezea kama mu Likasi: mi nalikuwa mule: mu Likasi: nalionaka mu cinquante huit: baliweka tena bourguemestre moja: Mutonkole Noël/ she wote tulisagaaka: mara ya kwanza kushikia ile maneno/ ni vile sawa unaweza kuuliza/ eko na papier ku mukono: T: mesdames: mesdames et demoiselles: nalijuaka kuni..?... ni changer: mais minasahabu naandika ah? nalikotola/ Had I know it I would have depicted 11 it. T: Alright, this is how they received Lumumba. There is Kwame Nkrumah, he was president at the time. Later he died in Guinea...?... And then there is this other guest getting out of the airplane with his bag inscribed "Ghana." He is deboarding. Mm-hmm. F: They took a Swissair plane? T: Swissair, it was operating at the time. T: If had gone with Sabena [the Belgian airline], they could have discovered his intentions...?... if he had gone with [Sabena]. T: So it was Swissair, they continue to operate today, everywhere in West and East Africa. F: [A dog is barking, aside:] I think someone is coming. T: Mm-hmm. F:...?... T: Mm-hmm. F: Wait a minute. [recording interrupted] 6. Let's go on with number thirty-seven, isn't it [Painting 38: Kasavubu is Elected Mayor]? T: Thirty seven? 12 F: Kasavubu now appears as mayor. T: Yes, Kasavubu appears as mayor. It was in '58, right? T: As I explained to you, in Likasi -- I was there -- I saw how they appointed a mayor in Likasi, Mutonkole Noël. We all were surprised when we heard of this. That's how it was, you can ask around. He [Kasavubu] holds a piece of paper in his hands. T: "Ladies and gentlemen" [it started]. I used to know [how it went on] but then I changed, but because I forgot I just drew something that looks like writing. 13 T: It doesn't matter, it was a mistake [chuckles]. Alright.

10 10 sur :36 T: haina maneno ni erreur/ [chuckles] bon/ mesdames mesdemoiselles et monsieurs: ni wakati tuko naita vile: T: ahah/ bon pardon: [takes closer look] nitaweza kuangalia tuko naangaria tu/ T: eeh/ F: njo papier yake?...?... T: bon: papier yake: F: ya discours? T: ya discours alianza kufanya: unaona batu banacheza: balisagaa kabisa kabisa: T: na furaha mingi: na madrapeaux ya Belge iko napepuka: ii ni caisse d'épargne: manyumba mule ndani:...?...: ndeke iko ndani ya mbingu: F: commune de Kitambo? T: Kintambo/ F: njo commune gani? T: Kintambo: na sasa iko Kintambo/ F: na Dendale? T: Dendale? banaisha ku?... F: njo hii? T: apana/ Dendale nayee banaisha kuchanger: jina mi sijui/ kama inaisha kuwa Kasavubu/ F: si njo Kasavubu alikuwa bourguemestre de: de Dendale? T: de Dendale? apana/ Kintambo/ F: Kintambo? T: aah/ F: sasa ba: minaona ile: ile nani: T: ni drapeau Belge/ F: drapeau Belge? T: oui/ F: ku revers alikuwa na drapeau Belge? T: oui alivwala: koti eh? T: sababu alikuwa bou: alikuwa bourguemestre wakati ya temps Belge/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ mu temps Belge eeh/...?... alikamata kainsigne ya drapeau Belge: anaweka/ 7. bon/ tena: mu: trente huit: beko: anakutana na Kasavubu: na: Lumumba/ [Painting 39: Kasavubu and Lumumba Meet at the Brussels "Ladies and gentlemen." That is how you addressed people in those days. T: Ah, yes. Excuse me [takes a closer look], we could take a closer look. T: Yes. F: This is his paper [manuscript]...?...? T: Right, his paper... T:... of the speech? T: Of the speech he was about to make. You see the people dancing, they could not believe it. T: There was great joy and the Belgian flags are fluttering in the wind. Among the buildings there is the Savings Bank, and there are birds in the sky. F: Is this Kitambo township? T: Kintambo. F: Which one is it? T: Kintambo, it still is Kintambo. F: And what about Dendale? T: Dendale, they... F: Isn't that the one? T: No, Dendale, they changed that name but I don't know it. Wasn't it called Kasavubu, finally? F: Wasn't Kasavubu the mayor of Dendale? T: Of Dendale? No, Kintambo. F: Kintambo? T: Yes. F: I see that he is wearing... T:... the Belgian colors [flag]. F: The Belgian colors? T: Yes. F: On the lapel, this was the Belgian flag T: Yes, he wore a jacket, right? T: [He wore the colors] because he was mayor during Belgian times. T: During Belgian times. So he took a pin representing the Belgian flag and put it on. 7. F: Alright, and now, in thirty eight it's the meeting between Kasavubu and Lumumba [Painting 39: Kasavubu and Lumumba Meet at the

11 11 sur :36 World's Fair]. T: na Lumumba/ oui: ni ku exposition: sawa vile nalikuelezea: T: na mi sifahamu maana ya: ya ile exposition: kama alikuwa juu ya vitabu: kama ilikuwa juu ya matableaux: ou bien: minafanya sawa niko artiste: naliwaza wepeshi: tableaux/ F:mm/ T: ni vile naweka matableaux: balipenta...?... F: na jina ya Picasso ya: T: Picasso: van Gogh: na jina yangu vilevile naliweka kule: T: mm/ [chuckles] F: [chuckles] T: bon/ batu mingi: unaona: madame: iko pale: européenne: T: et puis: bamonsieurs: na ba: citoyens Lumbumba na: Kasavubu/ beko naangaria matableaux: ii pose angaria naye tableau huku: T: huyu njo anakuya: comment muntu mweusi humu? nayee anakuya: eko namna gani? njo kujuana kwabo/ T: mm/ voilà/ 8.. F: sasa: quatre janvier/ [Painting 40: Lumumba Leading the Léopoldville Uprising] T: quatre janvier: pardon: nitoshe ya chini eh? F: tuko na mbili/ T: ah nitoshe ya chini: T: bon/ mbili inaachana? kuko moja: nafanya kwa kuweza kuuzisha ile wakati/ ya drapeau yetu hii tuko naye sasa/ kuko moja: iko ndani ya histoire/ F:...?... T: ile: ii iko ndani ya histoire/ ile: haina na histoire?proprement puisque: F: aah/ T: eeh/ puisque ile nitaweza Brussels World's Fair]. T: And Lumumba. Yes, it was at an exhibition, as I explained to you. T: But I don't know what the exposition was about. Was it books? Or paintings? Now, since I am an artist it did not take me long to decide that it was paintings. T: So I put in paintings they did... F: With the names of Picasso... T:...Picasso, van Gogh, and my own name, too, I put there. T: Mm-hmm [chuckles]. F: [chuckles] T: Anyhow, a lot of people were there. You see a European lady over there. T: And there were [European] gentlemen, also Lumumba and Kasavubu, two Congolese, looking at pictures. I painted one of them in the pose of looking at a painting... T:... while the other one is approaching. "How come," one of them says, "there is a black person here?" And the other says: "How can this be?" This is how they got to know each other. T: Mm-hmm. There you are. 8. F: Now, January 4 [Painting 40: Lumumba Leading the Léopoldville Uprising] T: January 4. Sorry, Should I take out the one below? F: We have two of them. T: Ah, I should take out the one below. T: Alright, the two are different, aren't they? One of them I did so I could sell it at the time, with our present flag. The other one has its proper place in history. F:...?... T: This one here is placed in history; the other one isn't really historical because... T: Right. That's the one I can

12 12 sur :36 kuuzisha hata sasa hapa/ ku banduku/ na hii: puisque: drapeau: inaonyesha wakati ya zamani/ F: ile donc: inaonyesha donc: T: ii: iko mu histoire/ puisque: iko na drapeau inyewe ya ile: époque/ T: mm/ bon/ ni vile: Lumumba njo alibamba drapeau: eh? F: mu histoire hapa? T: ah: bapeuple beko ku mukongo: T: ile?comme ce: mu mille neuf cent cinquante neuf: sawa ile tableau inyewe: ile manifestation: ilicauser kukumbusha 6 manyumba: na kutupa bintu: kuua bintu: kubeba: bengine banakwenda nabyo: manguo: mamachine: maz: ma: mara: poste à radio: bintu mingi na bintu ingine tu/ mm/ F: Costa? T: ni ilikuwa bazungu wa mu Kinshasa: ku kuwaza tu/ F: Hôtel Kasa? T: oui: Kasa: F: Gancia/ T: Léo premier/ Gancia/ Léo deux/ F: paka manyumba ya kule/ T: manyumba ya kule/ ni vile: F: nayee anavwala chemise gani? T: Lumumba? T: anavwala chemise mweupe: ile ya wakati nalifanya: [chuckles] rangi ili: pandaka kule/ F: mais sasa: minaona tena ni sawa tableaux mbili/ T: ahah/ F: eh? T: bon/ F: moya: [rummage] moya inaon: inaonyesha: sawa: ii révolte ya quatre janvier: T: bon/ F: tena: portrait moya ya Lumumba/ T: aah/ ile: F:...?... T: maana yake: ni kusema: mambo inyewe inatokea: ni pa discours ya Lumumba ile alifanya: juu hii mambo: T: inatokea/ ni tableau moja tu/ c'est que inaonyesha kama ni: juu ya ile mambo alisema yee/ njo pale: batu: balitomboka/ na ku: ua sell even now to my brothers, whereas the flag on the other one shows a time that has passed. F: So this one shows... T: It is historical because it has the flag of the period. T: Mm-hmm. Anyway, Lumumba picked up the flag, right? F: the historical one here? 14 T: Yes, and the people are behind him. T: That was in 1959, and this demonstration had as a result that houses were looted and things were thrown outside, destroyed, taken away. Some went away with clothes, appliances, radios and many other things. Mm-hmm. F: [Who was] Costa? 15 T: [That was the name of] whites from Kinshasa; it was just an idea [to put it there]. F: Hotel Kasa? T: Yes, Kasa. F: Gancia. T: Léo[pold] I, Gancia, Léo[pold] II. F: Just buildings there [in Kinshasa]. T: Yes, buildings there. F: And what kind of shirt is he wearing? T: Lumumba? T: He wears a white shirt. I painted it in the color they used to wear in those days, when they went out 16 there [in Kinshasa]. F: But now another thing: I see really two paintings [in one]. 17 T: I see. F: Right? T: Fine. F: One shows [rummage] the uprising of January 4. T: Fine. F: The other a portrait of Lumumba. T: Ah, that... F:...?... T: The idea behind this is to show that this event started with Lumumba's speech, because of this affair... T:... that was the result. But it

13 13 sur :36 bitu ya: ya bazungu:...?... F: na ile nga: ile ngambo: ina: tableau inamuonyesha: sawa: sawa ku discours yake? T: yake eeh/ hii minaona unafanya mbiombio/ T: ii eh? T: apana: ni wakati achangaliki nafanya tu: wakati nilipatanaka na mweye: ii ni ya sasa ii/ F: ii ni ya sasa? T: eh: ii ni ya sasa/ eh/ ile ni art/ art: iko namna mingi/ F: [laughs] T: nitaweza kufanya nafanya couleur ingine: [chuckles] nachanger couleur ingine/ 9. F: tunafika kwa tableau: eh: kama ni numéro: ts: na hapa tuliachana kiloko: T: mm/ F: quarante deux hapa mu: yangu/ ku liste hii: T: tulikotola: F:...?... ni vita ku: Kinshasa/ [Painting 41: Troops Intervene in Léopoldville] T: ku Kinshasa/ ilikuwa quatre janvier/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ bon/ ile mvita/ sawa hii tableau: na minazani nakotola/ nitatshikia mi vile/ kwa sababu ile wakati bo bado kufanya appel à l'onu/ F: appel à l'onu? T: eeh/ c'est que bal'onu: sawa minakuonyesha ndani: abakukuyemo apana/ F: bado? T: aah/ bale balikuwa penywe vita: ilikuya: bamerce: nani quoi: les Paras Belges: F: Paras Belges/ T: na Force Publique/ njo ilikatazaka ile mvita: kuwa nguvu zaidi/ minaona wazungu: T: ni bazungu wa kati: muzungu mwanamuke: muzungu mwanau: unaona huyu? is really one painting. It's just that it shows that it was because of what he had said that the people exploded and destroyed the property of the whites. T: So this side of the painting shows [Lumumba] during his speech? T: Yes. It looks to me as if you painted this very quickly. T: This one? No, but it may look that way because I made it some time ago, before I met you. The other one I did now. 18 F: So this one was done recently? T: Yes, it is recent. Well, that's the way with art, it comes in many kinds. F: [laughs] T: I could also do one in different colors [chuckles], change to a different color. 9. F: Now we have come to painting number -- wait, here we are a little off [with our count]. T: Mm-hmm. F: It says forty-two here but on my list... T: We fell behind. 19 F: There is war in Kinshasa [Painting 41: Troops Intervene in Léopoldville]. T: In Kinshasa. It was on January 4. T: Right then, about this war. In this picture I think I made a mistake, I'll admit this. Because at that time the appeal to the UN had not yet gone out. F: Appeal to the UN? T: Yes, but the UN troops I show you in this picture weren't there yet. F: Not yet? T: Right, the ones who were involved in the fighting were the mercenaries, or rather the Belgian paratroopers. F: The Belgian paratroopers. T: And the Force Publique [colonial army]. They prevented the fighting from getting totally out of control. I see whites. T: There are whites in the midst of it, a white woman and a white

14 14 sur :36 T: na muzungu: ni mbio: na mushale: asema niue tu/ huyu muzungu anakufa: huyu muntu anakufa: ilikuwa siku waliuana: mingi sana/ F: huyu munene huyu/ T: huyu munene ni muntu mulefu/ na muti ku mukono/ T: eeh/ nayee iko ana: kimbia paka asema nikauane: nipikane tu/ T: na ile avion: iko juu: avion ya vita/ wakati nilisikia vile Kinshasa yote inawaka: kulikuwa avion de chasse eh? T: ya Force Publique ile wakati/ mais ilikuwa baparas Belges: aikukuwe Force Publique hapana/ F: balipasula nani: tableau: dra: T: bana: bana: ile siku bali: pasula drapeau ya Belges: ya Belgique pardon: T: balipasula: bana: tupa: akuwe tu mufano ata moja/ minaona unaanza kuweka macadres kiloko sasa/ ya mweushi/ T: cadre kidogo ya mweusi eh? 7 T: oui: apana: ni ma: ni ma: kuko na wakati ingine eh? kintu tutaweza kuya muzuri: njo kusema nifanye hivi/ T: ni kusema pale nalianzaka: nalianza namna ingine/ T: na pa kwanza kuendelea asema nipente hivi: itakuwa muzuri/ T: eeh/ 10. F: sasa vingt: quarante trois: ni kufa kwa Ko: T: kwa Kokolo/ [Painting 42: Colonel Kokolo is Killed] F: kwa Nkolo/ T: eeh: [correcting me] Kokolo/ F: eh: Kokolo/ T: sababu uko na jina sawa camp man, and do see that one? T: The one with a spear. [He is running after] a white man, out to kill. This white man is dying and so is that black man, there was mutual slaughter. F: And this tall guy? T: That is a tall black guy. He has a stick in his hand. T: Yes, and he is hurrying to get into the killing and fighting. T: And those planes are war planes. I heard that they were all over Kinshasa in those days. They were jet fighters... T:... of the colonial army. But they were manned by Belgian paratroopers, not by colonial soldiers. F: The flag has been torn to pieces. T: On that day, they tore up the flag of the Belgians, sorry of Belgium. T: They tore it up and threw it away, it was unbelievable. I see that you begin to paint small black frames [around you pictures]. T: Small black frames? T: Yes but, no, they appear from time to time, right? [When I see] something can be improved then I decide to do this. T: What I want to say, when I began [painting] I did it differently. T: And when I began to make progress I decided to paint this way so it should be beautiful. T: Yes. 10. F: Now twenty, rather forty-three, the death of Ko... T:...of Kokolo [Painting 42: Colonel Kokolo is Killed] F: At Nkolo's. T: Yes, [correcting me] Kokolo's/ F: Right, Kokolo. T: There is a [place] name like

15 15 sur :36 Kokolo/ F: sawa camp Kokolo? T: mm/ T: bon/ ni vile ni kwake ku nyumba: unaona matableaux minaweka kule: T: ile tableaux minaandika Laskas: T: ingine naandika Tshibumba: meza ya mu nyumba ina: anguka: et puis: yee mwenyewe analala chini: basoldats banashimama yulu: F: baonu? T: mais: F: ina...?... kuwa babelges? T: bon: minaandika bal'onu: mais: ilikuwa ba: babelges: njo walimuuaka/ F: eeh/ T: eeh/ c'est que ile tableaux iko na maerreurs: tableaux mbili/ kuko erreur/ F: baghana/ T: eeh/ Ghanéens/ na nalikotola sana/ F: balikuwa makali? T: balikuwaka makali [chuckles]/ F: c'est vrai? T: aah eh/ bon/ 11. ile ni Kasavubu mbele ya tribunal/ [Painting 43: Kasavubu in Court] sawa vile nalikuelezea: balimufungaka: ile ni: foto ya Baudouin: F:...?... T: ile ni portrait ya Baudouin: F: hii ni portrait ya Baudouin? T: ah sawa wakati alikuwa roi [chuckles]: yapashwa tuweke juu: mm: F: na: galasi/ T: na magalasi eeh/ bon/ bajuges: beko banamusambisha: na kisha yake balimuachiliaka/ T: ile ni escalier inatoka kule: ku nyumba/ njo ya kufika ndani ya...?... F: eko wapi? mu Kinshasa? T: ni Kinshasa mm/...?... Kasavubu/ Camp Kokolo. F: Camp Kokolo? T: Mm-hmm. T: The scene is Kokolo's house. You see that I put in some paintings. T: One of them I signed Laskas [a fellow painter]. T: The other I signed Tshibumba. The table in this room was overturned and Kokolo himself lies on the ground. The soldiers are standing over him. F: UN [soldiers]? T: Well... F: Weren't they Belgians? T: Well, [on the picture] I wrote "UN [soldiers]" [ on their helmets] but, in fact, it was the Belgians who killed him. T: There are mistakes in the two paintings. There was a mistake. F: [There were UN soldiers] from Ghana. T: Yes, Ghanaians. I really was off. F: Were they tough? T: They were tough [chuckles]. F: Is that true? T: Ah, yes. Fine T: This is Kasavubu before the court [Painting 43: Kasavubu in Court]. As I explained to you, they locked him up. Up there, that's a portrait of Baudouin. F:...?... T: That is a portrait of Baudouin. F: This is a portrait of Baudouin? T: He was the king at the time [chuckles], so we had to put up [his portrait]. F: With his glasses. T: With his glasses, yes. Alright. So the judges tried him but then they let him go. T: That is a staircase that comes down from the building, that is how you would get into...?... F: Where was this, in Kinshasa? T: In Kinshasa, mm-hmm...kasavubu.

16 16 sur : hapa: T: ni Lumumba: F: Lumumba: [Painting 44: Lumumba in Buluo Prison]: Buluo/ T: Buluo/ F: quarante cinq: T: balimupika: fimbo mingi kabisa kabisa nazania: unaona vile banamupika/ na damu iko natoka/ T: eeh/ na manguo?tena haribika: et puis: umu ndani hii mabarreaux: c'est à dire: ni ndani/ ya nyumba/ ni ndani ya nyumba/ kule ni inje/ mm/ T: eeh/ na kisha yake balikuya kumufungula: na balimuacha ile mikamba banafunga: anaikala chini/ T: eeh/ F: hapa tu ni Likasi? T: ni Likasi tu: Likasi/ kama unaona buloko moya iko huku? T: eeh/ fasi: F: tuliona: tuliona/ T: c'est ça/ F: kumbe ba: balipasha kumuacha: T: balimuachaka: F: juu ya nini? T: balimuacha asema: sawa vile balimulomba ku Table Ronde: T: Kalonji: Kasavubu: bote balisema non: paka yee anakuya: puisque ni yee njo mwenyewe alibianza/ sasa shee tutakamatia wapi? T: tutaanza mambo ingine atujue/ yee akuye: akuwa atuelezea muzuri: ile tutaanza hapa/ 13. ni kweli nayee alipanda njo ile shiku anaacha Lubumbashi: [go on without pause to Painting 45: Lumumba Flies to Brussels] T: oui/ anaacha Lubumbashi: hii nazania kama: kama unatembea njia lwa mikulu ni ii njia: unafahamu/ peko kilalo: T: mayi ya Lubumbashi anapita: 12. Here [we have]... T: This is Lumumba. F: Lumumba [at] Buluo [Painting 44: Lumumba in Buluo Prison]. T: Buluo. F: [Number] forty-five]. T: [In Buluo prison] Lumumba was given a terrible flogging. You can see how he was beaten up, and the blood that is flowing. T: Yes. His clothes were torn and the bars are to show that he is inside a cell, the background is outside. Mm-hmm. T: Yes. When they locked him up they did not remove the ropes, and he is sitting on the floor. T: Yes. F: Was that in Likasi? T: In Likasi, Likasi. Haven't you seen the prison there? T: Yes, [that] place... F: We have seen it; we have seen it. T: That's it. F: And then they had to set him free. T: They set him free. F: Why? T: He was freed because the Round Table demanded it. T: Kalonji, Kasavubu, all of them said: "He has to come because he was the one who started all this. Where are we to go from here?" T: "We may embark on something we don't know. He should come and explain to us well what we are about to set in motion here." 13. The truth is, on that day Lumumba took off from Lubumbashi. F: Mm-hmm [Painting 45: Lumumba Flies to Brussels]. T: Yes, he left Lubumbashi. I think you may have walked that road there and know it. There is a bridge. T: The Lubumbashi river flow there.

17 17 sur :36 T: ahah/ anaruga sasa: anakwenda/ njo mawazo naliwaza/ ii ni mawazo sawa ulisema da: mu mawazo yako: T: na mi ni mawazo yangu [chuckles] niko nafanya/ bongo na kweli niko naweka mule ndani: kwa kutengeneza/ ahah/ F: oui/ T: anaruga: anakwenda kuparticiper ku: ku Table Ronde/ 14. tena: hapa tunaona: mu quarante sept: tunaona Table Ronde/ [Painting 46: The Brussels Round Table] T: participation eh? T: nazani unaona: apa: ni: bwana Lumumba: F: ndiyo/ T: Kashamura: ni Moïse: Tshombe: T: ni: Kalonji Albert: T: bon/ kule: ni muntu: Kasavubu: apa ni Gizenga: vile balikuya nazania tunendelea na kule/ bote baliparticiper mu ile conférence/ mbele ya...?...: kuko micro: juu ya kuweza kusema: sawa vile mu salle:...?... F: ilikuwa mu soixante? T: ilikuwa mu soixante/ Table Ronde ya Bruxelles/ F: eyo/ T: mm/ mais: mwenzi[sic] njo sifahamu/ et puis le trente juin: njo balitupa: Indépendant/ 15. tena: mu quarante huit: [Painting 47: The Proclamation of Independence] T: mu quarante huit: uko na zéro heures: procrama: proclamation pardon: 8 de l'indépendance/ F: oui/ T: bon/ ni kweli njo siku balileta Indépendance/ T: le trente Juin/ F: na: nani aliproclamer kule? T: Yes. So Lumumba takes to the air and he leaves. That is how I thought it up. It's a thought. As you said: "[As you see things] in your thoughts." T: What I painted is what I imagined [chuckles]. I put lies and truth into that painting when I composed it. F: Yes T: He took to the air, he left to participate in the Round Table. 14. F: So now we see, in [number] forty-seven, the Round Table [Painting 46: The Brussels Round Table]. T: Who participated, right? T: I think you can see Mr. Lumumba here. F: Yes. T: Kashamura, Moïse Tshombe. T: Albert Kalonji. T: Right. The person there is Kasavubu, and Gizenga over here. This is how they were [seated] and I think we go on [with the seats] over there. 21 All of them participated in that conference. Before them there were microphones in the room where they met so they could make their speeches. F: That was in '60? T: That was in '60, the Brussels Round Table. T: Mm-hmm. But the month I don't know. And then, on June 30, they gave us independence. F: Mm-hmm 15. Then, in [number] forty-eight [Painting 47: The Proclamation of Independence] T: In forty-eight you have zero hour, the proclamation of independence. F: Yes. T: Alright. This was the day independence was granted. T: On June 30. F: And who was there to make the

18 18 sur :36 T: le roi: Baudouin/ proclamation? F: Baudouin/ T: The king, Baudouin. T: njo aliproclamer Indépendance/ F: Baudouin. T: He proclaimed independence. T: ii ni magistrature: et puis: ni: Lumumba: na: Kasavubu/ kule: T: Those are the judges, and then kuko bapeuple/ mm/ there are Lumumba and Kasavubu, F: ku mukongo? and the people over there. Mm-hmm. T: na ku mukongo/ bantu balikuya F: In the back? mu le: nazani: sawa vile T: In the back, black people were unaniuliza mbele: nazani mu ile in [the assembly hall]. I think nyumba ni: ni palais de la nation/ you already asked [about that], it njo bali: proclamation: bali: was in the hall of the "Palace of proclamaka 9 nani: Indépendance ile/ the Nation." That is where they F: na drapeau ni ya Congo? proclaimed that 22 independence. T: drapeau ni ya Congo/ ile F: And the flag is that of the wakati: ya proclamation Congo? Indépendance: Congo ilikuwa na six T: The flag is that of the Congo. provinces/ c'est à dire province At the time of the proclamation of ya Katanga: independence the Congo had six provinces, that is to say, the T: province ya Kivu: province ya province of Katanga... Orientale: province de l'equateur: province ya: yaa Léopoldville: na T:... the province of Kivu, the province ya Kasai/ Eastern province, the Equator province, the province of T: ahah/ njo ile siku wali: Léopoldville, and the province of waliproclamer/ Kasai/ F: aah kumbe ile: T: sasa ile nyota moya: T: Yes, that was the day of the F: baliweka nyota six: proclamation. T: aah/ ile nyota moya: iko: F: I see, so this... unité/ T: Now, there is this one star. F: [And next to it] they put six T: mm/ njo vile ilikuyaka/ stars. T: Yes, this one star signifies T: utaweza kuniuliza tena/ unity.. F: ts: alafu Kasavubu anavwala uniforme? T: Mm-hmm. That's how it was. T: Kasavabu anavwala: manguo ya: busultani/ puisque pale alikuwa T: You can ask, if you have more chef de l'état: balimupa: ile: questions. manguo ya buchef de l'etat/ F: Kasavubu wears a uniform? puisque alikuwa chef de l'état: en T: Kasavubu wears a dress that même temps kama ni: oh marks his rulership. Because he magistrature vile balinitaka na mi was the head of state, they gave sifahamu muzuri/ him that dress. He was head of state. At the same time there was T: eeh/ chef suprème: kama the magistrature, or what was it umagistrature: tout ça/ call, I'm not sure about this. T: eeh/ T: Yes, the head of the supreme court, all that. T: Yes. 16. F: sasa: signature: [Painting 48: Lumumba Signs the Golden Book] 16. F: Now it's the signing [Painting 48: Lumumba Signs the Golden Book]

19 19 sur :36 T: signature: ni kweli mu: F: livre eh: d'or/ T: banamupatia: nani: kitabu: anasigner: F: paka ile wakati? T: ile wakati inyewe siku ya Indépendance: puisque premier ministre: T: alibeba gouvernement: alikuwa chef ya: ya gouvernement/ T: bon: aliitikia: anasigner kitab: livre d'or: na?be maprovinces yote sawa minaandika kule: kuko tableau moya mwenye nalimuandikia: maprovinces ya sasa kwa lakini: ni hii [points to other painting] F: ii: ii ni ya sasa? T: ii ni provinces ya sasa oui/ puisque hii nalikuwa juu ya kuuzisha/ T: kuko: kama juu ya histoire: nitaweza kufanya ile tableau: mais minaandika maprovinces ya zamani vile ilikuya/ T: eheh/ unaona naandika qui forment le Zaire: non: qui forment le Congo/ F: oui oui/ T: eheh/ 17. F: tena: kisha yake: discours/ T: discours/ njo ile discours ilikuya: batu bengine banasema: kama: kufwa kwa Lumumba: il paraît que ni pale ali: [interrupts, aside] ile ni mwee benyewe eh? T: aah/ ni nini? F: paka...?... T: ah...?... kama unakamata mafuta kidogo eh? F: ndiyo/ T: unafanya nayo: itatoka yote/ bon: banasema kufwa kwa Lumumba: ni pale bali: ni pale alisemaka discours ile alichambulaka Baudouin mingi mu Kinshasa: njo pale alikufa/ bengine banasema T: Indeed, the signature in... F:...the Golden Book. T: They gave him the book and he signed. F: Was that at the same time [when Independence was proclaimed]? T: The same time, the day of independence. Because, as prime minister... T:... Lumumba took over 23 the government. He was head of government. T: Alright. He agreed to sign the Golden Book, under the names of all the provinces as I wrote [them] down there [on the picture]. But on this painting I wrote down their current names. But there is one painting where I wrote down the provinces as they are called now, this one [points to another painting]. F: This one is recent? T: Those are the provinces now. Because I had this one [with me] to sell it. T: Had I done it for this History I could have written down the names of the provinces as they were called then. T: Yes. As you can see, I wrote "which form Zaire" and not "which form the Congo." 24 F: Yes. Yes. 25 T: Right F: After that the speech [Painting 49: Lumumba Makes His Famous Speech]. T: The speech. About that speech -- some people say that this is when he [interrupts, aside] this is something you did, right? T: Ah, what is this? F: Just some... T: If you take a little oil [you can remove it], right? F: Yes. T: If you apply it, all [the spots] will go away. 26 Alright, people say that this was when Lumumba signed his death warrant.

20 20 sur :36 hapana: kufwa kwa Lumumba: ni politique: ya mu Shaba/ T: bengi: ni: iko mambo mingi/ kufwa kwake: atujue kwa lakini/ voilà ni vile kwa lakini minaona/ F: alimuchambula namna gani? T: alisemaka: mufano alikwenda kuona nayee mu bulaya: kama banatunandaka 10 mu bulaya na mwee muko sawa mwetu humu: muko bapauvres: muko bariches kwa lakini/ T: vile alisemaka/ alisemaka mingi mais: na mi siwezi nafahamu ile discours: wakati alisema/ na batu walikuwa mingi: banamuke: banaume: F: paka huyu: T: ahah: ule ni policier ya: ya mbele: T: ya zamani/ sawa ile shiku mangaribi yake: njo balitoshaka ile nguo: banavwala hii ya: ya gris/ T: aah/ F: na Baudouin: anasikia tu/ T: Baudouin anasikia: na eko nacheka tu/ F: anapashwa kucheka/ T: eh ni: ni: banasemaka roi/ nazania vile/ roi anapashwa anacheka ata ile wakati ya maiti: yapashwa kuweka kacheko tu/ mm/< 18. F: kiisha yake: tunafika na: T: Lumumba tena...?... F: cinquante et un: [Painting 50: Whites Fleeing the Congo] T: bon: Lumumba anabakia tena mu cinquante et un vile: anasema kama: tous les Belges: doivent quitter le Congo dans vingt quat: dans vingt quatre heures/ F: eeh/ T: c'est que ile siku ilikuwa: hatari sana: tutasumbulia kiloko juu ya hii mambo: sawa vile nalionakayo/ F: eeh/ T: ilikuya: si tulikalaka kwetu ku nyumba: baba alienda mu kazi: baba yangu miye/ ule tuliona ku foto/ When he insulted Baudouin in his speech, that is when he died. Others deny that and say that Lumumba's death was a matter of Shaba politics. T: Others -- it was a complicated affair. His death, we don't know, but this is how I see it. F: How did he insult [Baudouin]? T: Simply by what he said. For instance, what he had observed in Europe, that they were cheating us. "You are rich in Europe," he said, "but we are poor here." T: That's how he talked. But he said a lot and I don't really know that speech, I did not hear it at the time. And many people were there, women and men... F: And who is this one? T: Ah, that is a policeman [dressed] as they used to be. T: In former times. In those days, in the evening, they would take out this grey uniform and put it on. T: Yes. F: And Baudouin just listens. T: Baudouin listens and smiles. F: He had to smile. T: That's what they say, I believe. A king has to smile even at times when it is difficult. He must put on a little smile. 18. F: After that, we come to... T:... still about Lumumba... F:...[number] fifty-one [Painting 50: Whites Fleeing the Congo].T: Alright, Lumumba is still present in [number] fifty-one by what he said : "All the Belgian must leave the Congo within twenty-four hours." T: Those were very dangerous days, let us talk a little about this affair as I witnessed it. T: What happened was, we were at home; my father -- the one we saw on the photograph -- had gone to work. T: He had gone to work. In the

21 21 sur :36 T: alienda mu kazi/ kwendaka mu kazi kule alikwenda: tuliongolea mangaribi: baba kuya hapana/ tunaona paka ma: quatre heures: basoldats banaanza kutoka mu camp/ bilatu hapana/ T: tiens/ na babibi: benye kubeba bintu/ ni nini? asema bazungu banatomboka/ banatomboka: banatomboka wapi? asema banatomboka tu/ hakuna mufano/ banabeba?nyumba ya masashi: na bintu ingine/ ni kweli: tulikuwa mvita moya ya nguvu kabisa/ she tuliongolea kama baba atafika: wapi/ tunaongolea/ wapi/ kufika quatre heures: cinq heures: six heures: tunasema kumbe banaisha kumuua...?.../ T: sababu alienda mu kazi/ shiku moya: inapita: tunaona muntu ya mu kazi yabo anakuya: asema ooh: Ambroise alienda na bas: na bazungu: ku Zambia/ sasa ni Zambia/ alikwenda na ba: na bamadames: puisque ali: umu ndani [pointing to the truck in the picture] mulikuwa bamadames: na batoto/ T: eeh/ ii njo alibebaka?tire: atabatambusha paka:?ngambo/ na kisha juma moya ya mvita: juma ya pili: tunaona anarudia tu muzima/ anaanza na kazi yake sawa desturi/ T: mm/ njo vile ilikuyaka/ na bale: sawa vile nilikuelezea: ni bamadames: na mtoto: anakwenda ku mayi kama wataweza kunywa/ et puis u: ule na pyjama: T: anafulia 11 kunawa maji: ule: ni kusema nikunywe ata maji na mikono tu/ T: sawa vile alibeba chupa yake: ni kubeba chupa: nikunywe tu/ T: eeh/ njo ile wakati/...?... F: mbalambala ya: Zambie? T: ya Zambie eeh/ ilikuwa paka mu soixante/ evening we were waiting for him but father did not come. At four o'clock we only saw soldiers leaving their barracks, without shoes. T: "What is this?" And [we also saw] their wives, carrying their belongings. "What is this?" The word was out: "There is tumult and confusion among the whites. They are in an uproar, but where." [The rumor was] "They are just rioting, unbelievable." They carry away baggage from their homes and other things. 27 Truly, we were in the midst of a big war. We kept waiting for father to arrive, nothing happened. We waited, nothing. When it got to four o'clock, five o'clock, six o'clock, we said: "So they killed him." T: Because he had gone to work. A day went by and we saw someone from his work place coming. "Oh," he said, "Ambroise went with the whites to Zambia. He is in Zambia now. He went with the ladies." Inside [pointing to the truck in the picture] there were the ladies and the children. T: Yes, It is them he drove and was going to guide over there. A week of turmoil went by, then a second one and we saw him return alive. So he took up his usual work. T: Mm-hmm. That's how it happened. And those persons [on the picture], as I explained to you, are the ladies and children. [The truck] went close to some water so they could drink. And there is this one, the one wearing pajamas. T: He is drawing water to wash and this other one tells himself: "I'll drink water, even if it is with my hands. T: He has brought his bottle along but, even so, he tells himself: "Let me drink." T: Yes, that was the time...