The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian

Transcription

1 1 sur :38 ISSN: Volume 2, Issue 7 (6 June 2000) The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian Introduction First Session, Part 1 First Session, Part 2 Second Session, Part 1 Second Session, Part 2 Third Session, Part 1

2 2 sur :38 Third Session, Part 2 Fourth Session Third Session, Part 2 TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE Third Session of November 12, 1974 Narrative 3 1. F: ndiyo/ ni kusema: tuli: maliza: arisi: ya histoire du Zaire: sawa wee unaona wee: Tshibumba/ mais: sawa vile tulifanya mara ingine: niko: narudia na: maquestions kiloko kiloko tu: ya: T: ya kuuliza: F: madétails/ F: sawa hapa sasa: tunaangaria: numéro soixante: [pausing] aaah: numéro: [rummaging] acha...?... numéro: F: soixante trois: mm? T: ah bon/ F: conflit Kasavubu na Lumumba/ [Painting 64a] mm? T: ahah/ F: bon: kumbe vile tunaona: Kasavubu: Kasavubu: yee iko na uniforme: T: ile ilikuya: tenue officielle/ c'est que sababu alikuwa: président ya république: en même temps: kama: nani: wa magistrature: T: alipashwa avwale ile/ F: pa Lumumba:...?... T: Lumumba: aliweza: anavwala costume/ sawa vile alikuwa pre: nani: premier ministre/ T: bale ni bapeuple/ ile ni ma: TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE Third Session of November 12, 1974 Explanations 3 1. F: Alright. So we finished the story of the history of Zaire as you, Tshibumba, see it. Now, as we did the other time, I am going to go back to some detailed questions... T:...questions to ask. F: About detail. T: I see. F: So, here we are looking at number sixty [pausing], number sixty [rummaging] -- just a minute, number... F: Sixty-three 1, right? T: Oh, alright. F: Conflict between Kasavubu and Lumumba [Painting 64a: The Kasavubu-Lumumba Conflict]. Right? F: Fine, so what we see here is Kasavubu, wearing a uniform. T: That was his official dress, he was the president of the Republic. Had he been a magistrate... T:...he would have had to wear the appropriate clothes. F: And Lumumba there? T: Lumumba, being Prime Minister, could wear a suit. T: And there are the people. Also shown are the political parties we had at that time.

3 3 sur :38 ma: mapartis politiques inyee tulikuwa nayo/ Abako: T: Abako: CRA: F: CRA c'est: njo nini? T: CRA: non siwezi na minafahamu muzuri kwa lakini/ F: MNC? T: MNC eh? PNP eh? F: PNP njo nini: ma: unajua maana yake? T: apana: sijue tena maana yake yote ile/ F: Atcar? T: Atcar: Atcar ni: ts: association de Tshokwe: ts: de Tshokwe eh? T: tuna na: na ile inaendela sifahamu muzuri/ bon: na Fedeka/ F: Fedeka? c'est que ilikuya: Atcar: Fedeka: Balubakat/ njo ilianza kuexister: ii kipande ya: Shaba/ F: ya Shaba/ T: ya Katanga eeh/ F: naona bale bantu bana...?..beba: T: ile ni mamvuli: parapluies/ F: parapluies? bon: ile ni nyota shita: F: dra: drapeau ya: T: drapeau ya nyota shita: ilikuwa sawa niliisha kuelezea ka makati ingine: six étoiles: sawa six provinces/ T: ile nyota munene: ni: unité/ bon/ conflit/ T: conflit: ni kisilani: F: mais beko be: devant le peuple? T: devant le peuple eh/ F: balibishana devant le peuple? T: balibishana mbele ya ba: non: abakubishana: c'est que sawa vile alikuwa premier ministre: ni Kasavubu mwenyewe alisemaka mbele ya bapeuple/ T: asema kuanzia leo: Lumumba ana tena: premier ministre apana/ T: sasa bapeuple balishutuka/ T: nayee alisindikaka: nayee alikwendaka ku radio: nayee anasema vilevile kama: Kasavubu F: I see, the Abako... T: Abako, CRA. F: What does CRA mean? T: I don't really know. F: MNC? T: And there were MNC and PNP, right? F: And what is PNP, do you know what it means? T: No, I don't know the meaning of all these [abbreviations]. F: Atcar? T: Atcar, Atcar, wait, that was the Association of the Tshokwe, the Tshokwe, right? T: No, the rest I don't really know. Anyhow, then [there was] Fedeka. F: Fedeka? What it was, Atcar, Fedeka, and Balubakat coexisted in this part of Shaba. F: Of Shaba. T: Of Katanga, yes. F: I see those people carrying...? T: Those are umbrellas. F: Umbrellas? Alright, those are the six star. F: Of the flag of... T: The six-starred flag. This was as I explained to you the other time: six stars to represent the six provinces. T: The big star stands for unity. Fine. Conflict. T: Conflict is kisilani. 2 F: So they stand before the people? T: Before the people, yes. F: Did the quarrel in front of the people. T: Did they quarrel in front of -- no, they did not really fight. It was just that Kasavubu declared before the people... T:...that, as of that day, Lumumba was dismissed as prime minister. T: The people couldn't believe it. T: And Lumumba put up resistance. He went on the radio and declared

4 4 sur :38 nayee: ana: chef de l'état/ F: oui/ T: mais suivant constitution: premier ministre akuwa na kintu ya kusema hapana/ balifwata mambo ya chef de l'état/ F: maneno sasa tuko na version ingine: [Painting 64b] T: ah bon/ F: mufano ingine ya ii tableau/ T: ni paka namna moja tu/ F: [chuckles] conflit/ T: ata inaachana: mais namna moja: ni paka: F: ma: T: conflit tu/ F: nani: minaona: Lumumba anav: vwala costume ingine: T: costume: c'est que ii ni: non en couleur/ T: ile ilikuya en couleur/ F: juu ya non en couleur: haukukuwa na couleur? T: c'est que: non non/ naliweza tu kufanya vile: kwa kusema nitengeneze: mawazo ingine/ F: mawazo gani? T: ni kusema nitengeneze tu/ T: sawa minafanyaka couleur ingine ya kuachana: ingine couleur ingine: yashipo: ya kuachana tuseme vile/...?... F: ah alafu ile: ile nyota alikuwa naye/ hapa [point to medal worn by Lumumba]/ T: nyota? nyota sawa vile alikuwa na drapeau six étoiles: na mi nazania mi niliweza kuweza nalikuweka ile mawazo juu ya kutengeneza tableau/ F: ilikuwa sawa décoration ao? T: sawa décoration mm/ na hapa tunaona Abako: T: tena peko Abako: PNP: F: PSA: T: PSA: parti solidaire Africain: ilikuwa ya Gizenga: T: ahah/ F: na CRA? T: na CRA: ilikuwa kama ya F: hii...?... T: Kamitatu: F: Cartel/ that Kasavubu was no longer head of state. T: But, according to the constitution, the prime minister had no power whatsoever to make such an announcement. So they sided with the head of state. F: Now we have another version of this painting here [Painting 64b]. T: Ah, yes. F: Another version of that painting. T: It's just the same. F: [chuckles] Conflict. T: Although it is different, it has the same subjec T: the conflict. F: The matter of the... T: Just the conflict. F: I see that Lumumba now wears a different suit. T: The suit -- that's because it is not in color. painting was. T: [In the other painting] it was in color. F: About this one not being in color -- had you run out of colors? T: No, no, I could have done it in color. I just wanted to work out a different idea. F: What kind of idea? T: Let's say, I wanted to paint it that way. T: I used colors in the other one in order to make it different. One in color, the other not. Let's say [it was] to make them different. But this star [Lumumba] is wearing [on his suit] here. T: The star? The star is the same that appeared on the six-starred flag. I thought I could put it here to express the idea [behind it], to compose 3 the painting. F: So it was a kind of decorative element? T: A decorative element, mm-hmm. And here we see Abako. T: There is Abako and also PNP... F: PSA... T: PSA, parti solidaire Africain. That was Gizenga's [faction].

5 5 sur :38 T: Cartel: Cartel ilikuya ya: Sendwe eh? T: aah/ Sendwe Janson: F: [pointing to sphere in lower right corner] njo nini hapa? T: ile non: ii ni: nani: kibambazi: ya mu stade/ T: ile ni ningazi 1 / F: ningazi/ 2. F: bon/ vile tunaendelea: ku: tableau: ah: numéro: ee: soixante quatre: ni kusema: arrestation yake à Lodja/ [Painting 65: Lumumba Is Arrested at Lodja] T: à Lodja/ ah: F: Lodja: mu Kasai kule/ T: kule: nazania unafahamu kule eh? [chuckles] T: bon arrestation à Lodja: ni kusema makati ile alikimbiaka: alifungwaka sawa vile nalikuelezea/ F: ndiyo/ T: wee utaweza kuniuliza mambo unaona ndani: utaweza kuuliza na mingi/ F: na eko na wa: Peugeot: quatre cent trois/ T: Peugeot: quatre cent et trois: ni mamarques ile ya zamani/quatre cent et trois: ata kama unoana modèle yake sawa quatre cent quatre: ni kwa kuonyesha tu kama ni Peugeot nalifanya/ F: ni kusema ilikuwa karibu: enfin: ndani ya mugini ao? T: ilikuwa ndani ya mugini/ F: na bale basoldats beko banani? ba: T: ANC/ F: ANC/ T: Armée Nationale Congolais [sic]/ T: Congolaise ou bien? F: mais nani alimubamba kule? F: And CRA? T: And CRA, that was... F: This one...?... T: Kamitatu's. F: [And then] Cartel. T: Cartel. Cartel was Sendwe's, right? T: Yes, Sendwe Janson. F: [pointing to a sphere in lower right corner] And what is this here? T: That -- no, that belongs to a wall in the stadium. T: These are stairs. F: Stairs. 2. F: Fine, so we go on and come to painting number sixty-four, that is, to [Lumumba] being arrested in Lodja [Painting 65: Lumumba Is Arrested at Lodja]. T: At Lodja, yes. F: Lodja, down in the Kasai. T: That's where it is, I think you know the region, right? [chuckles] T: Alright. Arrest at Lodja. It's about the time when he fled from his [house] arrest [in Kinshasa] as I explained to you. T: You can ask me about the things you see in this [painting]. You can ask many questions. F: So Lumumba has a Peugeot 403. T: The Peugeot 403 is one of the old models. But about the even if you see another model, for instance, the 404, you would recognize that I painted a Peugeot. F: It seems [that Lumumba was arrested] near the town, right? T: No, it was in the town. F: And who were the soldiers? T: ANC. F: ANC. T: The Congolese National Army. T: It is Congolese, right? 4 F: But who actually made the arrest? T: Made the arrest there?

6 6 sur :38 T: kule kumubamba kule? T: nazania: kufwata vile balisema: ilikuya colonel Tshatshi: njo ali: balitumaka kwenda kumubamba kule/ sawa vile ilikuwa mission/ hawezi nakatala/ hatuwezi: paka kutoka kwenda/ F: mission/ ya: T: sa: ili: balimu: commissioner/ sawa vile ata wee nduku yako: hata o: kama uko militaire: banakutuma kwenda bamba baba yako: utabamba/ 3. F: arrestation à Lodja: sasa tuko tunafika mu soixante: tableau soixante cinq: [Painting 66: Lumumba Is Brought before the People] tunaona: [reading from painting] Lumumba devant le peuple au stade ex-baudoin premier/ T: bon/ F: ni kuisha: kish: nani: kiisha ku: kumubamba/ T: c'est ça/ kisha kumubamba ku Lodja/ T: balimuleta sasa: ku Kinshasa/ sawa vile nalikuambia kama mambo ilipitaka kule: ni mambo ya bakubwa/ eeh? T: ni kweli Lumumba alifungwa sawa na ii nkamba ile: chemise: koti ile baliisha kutosha: anabakia na chemise: anatosha chemise ndani ya pantalon: anababakia tu: F: juu ya nini? T: wazi/ kutosha chemise ndani ya pantalon? F:...?... T: ni bule tu/ T: sawa hivi kama uko ni kufungwa: utaweza kutosha bilatu: na...?... mikulu bule: na: ile: na bale bamilitaires banashimama: ba...?... bunduki ku mikono: na ku mukongo: ile ni: tribune: ku mukongo kuko batu/ T: aah/ F: na hapa tunaona: mapublicités/ T: Belga: Martini: AMI: Agence Maritime Internationale: Gallic: Coca Cola: ni: mapublicités/ T: I think -- and here I follow what was being talked about -- it was Colonel Tshatshi. He was sent to arrest Lumumba there. It was like a mission and he could not refuse to go. You cannot refuse, you just take off and go there. F: What kind of mission was this? T: He had orders. If you are a military man and they give you an order to arrest a relative, even your own father, you'll do it. 3. F: [So that was] arrest at Lodja, now we come to painting sixty-five [Painting 66: Lumumba Is Brought before the People]. We see [reading from painting] Lumumba before the people in the former Baudouin I stadium. T: Alright. F: This is after he was arrested. T: That's right, after he was arrested in Lodja. T: So after arresting him at Lodja they brought Lumumba to Kinshasa. But as I told you before, what happened there is one of those things that concern the big shots, right? T: Fact is, that Lumumba was tied with a rope. They had taken off his coat and his shirt was hanging out of his pants. That is how he was standing [there]... F: Why that? T: For everyone to see. Why they pulled the shirt from his pants? F:...?... T: It was just one of those things. T: If you are locked up you will have to take off your shoes and go barefoot. At any rate, there are soldiers standing next to him, guns in their hands, and behind them there is the grand stand where the people are. F: And here we see commercial signs. T: Belga, Martini, AMI,

7 7 sur :38 F: mapublicités...?... mu stade/ sasa minaona ile: nani: ko: T: bon/ F: fia yabo/ T: c'est ça/ F: inaachana/ T: ii ni: justice militaire/ F: justice militaire/ bale ni bapm/ Police Militaire/ F: haba? T: hapana: bale uliona kule/.../...ya mwisho/ F: ah bale bale: tuliona ku Lodja: T: ni PM/ F: PM/ T: bon: F: Police Militaire/ T: sasa hii: ni justice militaire/ F: na nani: na kofia yabo: T: na kofia yabo/ F: inaachana/ T: inaachana/ F: eyo/ T: eheh/ sasa tu bakukre: répresenter devant le peuple: sawa vile unasema: T: bon/ ilikuwa sawa vile mbele ya bapeuple: mais sawa nikukuambia kama ni mambo ya bakubwa ilipitaka/ na shee bengine tunafahamu vile ilipitaka/ mais: ni nambo ya bakubwa/ niliisha kuelezea lakini/ mm/ ni mambo mingi ilipitaka kule/ c'est kulikuwa bakubwa mingi kule/ F: ku stade? T: ku stade eeh/ 4. F: tena: calvaire d'afrique/ [Painting 67a and b: African Calvary] tuko na mbili/ T: calvaire d'afrique: muko na mbili: ya rangi ya kuachana/ F: eh/ T: en couleur: na yashipo en couleur/ iko sawa foto anabeba madame: madame Fabian alinikamata: International Sea Agents, Gallic, Coca Cola -- these are commercial signs. F: So there were commercial sign in the stadium? Now I see -- what do you call them? -- hel... T: Right... F: Their helmets. T: That's right. F: They are different. T: These belong to the Justice Militaire. F: Justice Militaire. T: Yes, those others were PM, military police. F: These here? T: No, the ones you saw on the last painting. F: Ah, the ones we saw in Lodja. T: They were PM. F: PM. T: Right. F: Police Militaire. T: The ones [you see here] are Justice Militaire. F: And their helmets... T: Their helmets... F: Are different. T: Are different. So Lumumba is being presented to the people, as you said. T: Right. It happened before the people but, as I told you, what happened there is the big shots' affair. Some among us know what happened but it's something that concerns the big shot. Lots of things happened there, because many big shots where there in the stadium. F: In the stadium? T: In the stadium, yes. 4. F: Then comes African Calvary [Painting 67a and b: African Calvary]. We have two versions. T: You have two [paintings of] African Calvary. The difference is the color. T: One in color, the other not. This is like the photographs Mrs. Fabian took of me.

8 8 sur :38 T: alisema atakamata en couleur: na atakamata ya mu noir/ T: njo vile ni minafanya/ nafanya: en couleur: na en noir/ bon/ ni paka pamoja tu/ kama uko na maulizo: nitakujibu/ F: ndiyo/ kumbe tunaona: ni paka: Luano: T: ni Luano/ F: kiwanza ya: T: ya: ii ni tour de contrôle: ile ni avion: ya Sabena/ T: bon: ni nkamba ile: haba: ni ba: bantu ya sûreté: sawa vile balikwenda kumupeleka sababu: kutuma kwa kintu yote: yapashwa sûreté ajue/ sawa sasa apa umu tu ni CND: yapashwa ijue/ F: na beko gendarmes: bagendarmes de: T: bagendarmes: ya Katanga/ F: ya Katanga/ naona croisettes/ T: troisettes [sic]: iko ile nani: mukub: ile: ata pa drapeau ya Katanga uliona? zette [sic]/ F: bon: pa fasi ya ma: nyota: balikuwa na croisettes ku ma: T: bo banakuwa na croisettes aah: na croi: F: mabega/ T: aah ni vile tuseme/ nayee anafanana na Tshombe/ [pointing] huyu/ T: apana/ T: sawa hii wakati balimuletaka yee: Tshombe akukuyake yee apa hapana/ F: hapana/ T: Tshombe alikuwa mu safari/ huyu alikuyaka kule alikuyaka Kibwe: Munongo: njo balipatikana kule/ T: She said that she would photograph me in color as well as in black [and white]. T: And that's what I did. I painted (one) in color and (one) in black (and white). Alright. It's the same thing. If you have questions, I'll answer. So we see Luano [airport]. T: It's Luano. F: The airport. T: This is the control tower, and there is the Sabena plane. T: Alright, [Lumumba is tied up with] this rope and those are agents of the sûreté.they went to fetch him because they are always sent whenever there is something, the sûreté must know about it. Nowadays we have the CND that is charged with gathering intelligence. F: And those are gendarmes of... T: Katanga gendarmes. F: Katanga. F: Ah, I see the croisettes [on the shoulder pieces of the gendarmes]. T: Troisettes [sic], they represent copper ingots, the ones you saw on the flag of Katanga. Zette [sic]. F: Right, instead of stars they had croisettes on their... T: They had croisettes -- ah, croi [that's the correct word]. 5 F:...on their shoulders. T: Yes, that's how it was. [One of those agents] looks like Tshombe. This one. T: No. T: When they brought in Lumumba, Tshombe was not here in Lubumbashi. F: He wasn't. T: He was travelling. The ones who were there were Kibwe and Munongo, they were the ones who met [Lumumba].

9 9 sur :38 5. na: tena: mu tableau soixante sept: ni kufa kwake/ [Painting 68: The Deaths of Lumumba, Mpolo, and Okito] T: bon/ F: Lumumba/ sawa wee ulisema: uliniambia madétails nazani: T: kufwa kwake/ F: [pointing] unité/ damu inatoka/ T: damu inatoka/ inazambalala 2 / F: inazangalala [sic]: banasema Bob Denard: alimuua/ T: Bob Denard alimuuaka/ F: nayee alikuwa nani? Bob Denard? T: alikuwa mercenaire ya Katanga/ F: mercenaire/ T: eeh alikuwa mercenaire/ sasa yee alianza kutumikia Katanga/ na Okito: na Mpolo? T: na Mpolo na Okito: sawa balikuya naye vilevile: baliweza?apa kuwawa/ F: balikuwa banani? T: Mpolo: puisque: eh: Mpolo alikuwaka: alikuwa militaire ya ANC/ T:...?... kama: alikuwa na grade gani: shiwezi najua/ F: na Okito vilevile? T: Okito vilevile/ kama iko ga: wapi: mi sione iko mu brousse? T: ile fasi? T: mina: mi kwa mawazo yangu ni ndani ya nyumba/ alafu sasa minafanya juu ya kuonyesha: fasi alikufia/ sababu kama naonyesha ndani ya nyumba: macouleurs: itakuya: ts faible/ T: aitakuya muzuri eeh/ kumbe uliweka wingu/ aina wingu mais: ni kutengeneza tu kwa: kwa tableau tuseme/ T: na misalaba tatu ile uanona kule: c'est que ni idée yangu: sababu mi kwa kufwata histoire yake: minafwataka: naonaka: kama Lumumba alikuwa sawa Yezu/ T: alikufa tu maana moja na Yezu/ Yezu alikufa: katikati ya bantu 5. And then painting sixty-seven: [Lumumba's] death [Painting 68: The Deaths of Lumumba, Mpolo, and Okito]. T: Alright. F: Lumumba. I think you [already] told me about the details... T: [of] his death. F: [pointing] Unity [written in] the blood that flows. T: The blood flows and spreads. F: It spreads. They say it was Bob Denard who killed him. T: Bob Denard killed him. F: Who was he, this Bob Denard? T: He was a Katanga mercenary. F: A mercenary. T: Yes, he was a mercenary working for Katanga. And Okito and Mpolo? T: Mpolo and Okito, they too were killed in this place. F: Who were they? T: Mpolo was a member of the Congolese National Army. T: But I don't know what his rank was. F: And Okito also? T: Okito also. Where is this scene? I don't recognize this, is it out in the bush? T: The place? T: In my thoughts it was inside a house. But now I did it this way in order to make the death more visible. Were I to present the scene inside, the colors would not come out and it would not be as impressive. T: It would not come out well. So you put it in a landscape. It's not a landscape, let's just say it was a matter of composing the picture. T: And the three crosses you see there, that is my idea. Because when I followed his history, I saw that Lumumba was like Jesus. T: He died the same way Jesus did. Jesus died it was between three,

10 10 sur :38 tatu: ya bantu mbili/ nayee alikufa katikati ya bantu mbili/ alifungwa vilevile nayee alifungwa/ ilikuwa tu pamoja/ 6. bon: mwisho ya: ngambo ya gani: ya [rummaging] Lumumba: kiisha tuliendelea: na ile ingine: nafwata/ ni kusema: turudie ku Katanga/ [Painting 69: The Deaths of the Innocent Children] T: bon/ F: sasa tunasem: tunaona: paka ma: mu: tableau soixante huit: la mort des innocents/ innocents: tunaona mumbunda: mampala: bulalo: T: bon/ F: na wanamuke: T: na bitunga: ile: ya kichwa: F: beko banakimbia? T: banakimbia mvita/ F: kwenda wapi? T: sasa banakwenda mu ma: bengine banakwenda kwa Kanyakaa/ ku mugini moja: kwa chefu moya hivi/ T: kule balikimbiliaka/ bengine banakwenda mu pori/ T: ilikuwa mateso ya kila mufano tu/ F: be: balikuwa bantu ya kila kabila? T: balikuwa bantu ya kila kabila ya Katanga/ F: bon/ sasa ulisema: mwanamuke ingine: batoto yabo ilikuwa: T: kama anabeba mutoto: F: ilikuwa m: buzito: T: bon kama anaona fasi anafichama: anasikia masashi inalia: mutoto anaanza kulia: bataweza kamata mutoto anamutupa hata chini/ yee anakwenda/ ou bien: pa kupita pa kilalo pale: mutoto kama anapita kulia: anaona buzhito: anatosha mutoto: anatupa mu maji mule/ yee anaanza: F: kuua batoto yabo? T: mutoto yake mwenye kuzala/ anatosha tu kikwembe hivi: anafungula: anatupa ndani ya maji/ F: ile uliisha kuona: na mecho yako? T: ile ilikuwa mambo ya kweli/ bale baliona/ na mafoto: balikamata bengine/ or rather two others. [Lumbumba] also died between two people. And he was tied up the way Jesus was. It was just the same. 6. Alright. So we covered that angle of Lumumba's story. Then we went on with that other [painting] that follows. In other words, let's go back to Katanga [Painting 69: The Deaths of the Innocent Children]. F: Now we see in the painting sixty-eight the death of the innocent. The innocent. We see the smoke stack and the slag heap, and a bridge. T: Right. F: And women... T:... carrying these baskets on their heads. F: Are they are fleeing? T: They are fleeing from the war. F: Where are they going? T: Some go to Kanyakaa, to a village [named after] a chief. T: That's where they fled. Others take to the bush. T: There was suffering of every imaginable kind. F: Did they belong to all ethnic groups? T: They belonged to every ethnic group in Katanga. F: Alright. Now, you said that some women -- their children were... T: Some women carried their child. F: It was a burden. T: Alright, [this woman] looked for a place to hide, the bullets where whistling and the child begins to cry. It got so far she would throw the child on the ground and run away. Or, when she went by the bridge there and the child would cry too much she would realize that the child was a burden, she would take it off [her back] and throw it there into the water. She would... F: They killed their own children? T: The very child she had given birth to. She would untie it from the wrap she was carrying it in

11 11 sur :38 F: sasa ya intitulé: ba balif: ma: mafoto balikamata? T: bengine balikamata foto/ F: c'est vrai? F: ilio: ilionekana wapi? T: mais: apana/ sikuone/ T: mais ili: kulikamatikwa foto: ilikuwa bitu mingi tu/ F: mais: juu ya intitulé yake/ des innocents/ mort des innocents/ F: kusema nini: mort des innocents? T: njo kusema: lufu ya bamalaika: c'est que muntu: ajue maneno: mais anakufa tu bule/ mm? muntu yee hapana kujua maneno: mais yee anakufa: bule/ F: ni sawa: sawa bantu banasumbulia juu ya ile mambo: banasema mort des innocents? banasema nini? T: mimi: njo minawaza: F: eeh/ T: nawaza ile mawazo ya batoto kidogo/ T: mutoto: T: sawa mutoto unabeba/ T: ajue mambo/ T: eh? ni muntu tu ashikie ni ile uko nasema/ na mvita inye kule ilianza: yee lwake ajue hapana/ sasa: anashutuka tu: anatupa mu maji sema kufwa/ c'est que ni mort des innocents/ c'est que hana na maneno/ ajue ile maneno ata/ très bien/ alafu bantu banasumbulia tena juu ya ile mambo? T: bansumbuliaka kila mara/ kila mara beko nasumbulia: bengine beko nasagaa: bengine...?... F: banasema tu: T: mambo ya mastajabu sana/ F: ile ile wakati banamuke baliua: bengine: nazania bengine s: siku nalifanya ii tableau: tulikuwa na banamuke bengine kwangu kule: balisema kama: ts mi shiwezi nafanya vile/ T: minasema utafanya: kama lufu inaisha kuwa karibu: utafanya tu/ and throw it into the water. F: Did you see this with your own eyes? T: This was something that really happened. Some people saw it, and others took photographs. F: Is that true? F: Where did this happen? T: Well, I did not actually see it. T: But photographs were taken, lots of things happened. F: But, what about the title [of the picture]: Death of the Innocent? F: What does it mean "Death of the innocent?" T: It means that it was the death of angels: a human being who does not understand [what is happening] and meets a senseless death. F: Was it that people, when they were talking about this event, would call it "Death of the innocent," or what did they say? T: [No,] it's me, I thought it up. T: I had this idea of the small children. T: A child. T: As you carry a child... T:... who doesn't understand anything. T: Right? It's a person who does not understand what you are saying. And when this war there started, it did not understand. Now [the mother] was overwhelmed, she just threw [the child] into the water: "Die." That is the death of the innocent. She did not understand what was happening. 6 F: Mm-hmm, but people are still talking about this affair? T: They talk about it all the time. They talk about it all the time. Some express their amazement, others... F: They just talk [about it]... T:... [others say that] it was something terrible. F: The time when women killed...

12 12 sur :38 ni sawa/ 7. F: sasa: eh: numéro: soixante neuf: [Painting 70: Katanga Soldiers Shooting People in Jadotville] T: bon/ F: ni: les Balubakat: à Jadotville/ [Recording interrupted] tena juu ya tu:...?...hapa/ T: bon/ F:...?... Jadotville: ulisema k: kama balikuwa: balikuwa tu baluba ya: T: ya Katanga/ F: ya Katanga: mais mwenye kuk: mwenye kukala: T: mu Jadotville/ F: na bo balifanya: ilikuwa mu: mu mwaka gani? T: nawaza ilikuwa mu soixante deux/ F: mu soixante deux? T: mu soixante deux oui/ soixante deux/ puisque soixante trois ilikuwa fin ya sécession ya Katanga/ F: c'est ça/ ni bo baliweka drapeau ya Congo/ T: drapeau: F: juu ya kuonyesha: she tuna: T: kama tunakatala ile mambo/ atupende ile mambo ya drapeau ya Katanga/ sawa vile drapeau ya Katanga: kule iko ni ku centre: ya Likasi/ F: c'est ça/ hapa ni mu avenue Sanga/ T: avenue basanga/ F: oui/ T: eheh/ F: na: T: kule ya avenue Basanga oui/ F: [goes to door and tells children to make less noise, pause] di: muachie makelele eh? ah: kama baachie makelele...?... I think others -- on the day when I painted this picture there were some women at my house there and they said: "I could never do a thing like this." T: "You would do it," I said, "when death comes close, you are just going to do it." T: Yes, that's how it is. 7. F: Now number sixty-nine [Painting 70: Katanga Soldiers Shooting People in Jadotville]. T: Fine. F: It is [about] the Balubakat in Jadotville. [Recording interrupted] So then this here...?... T: Alright. F:...?... Jadotville. You said that they were Luba from... T:...from Katanga. F: From Katanga, but they were living in... T:... Jadotville. F: And they did -- what was the year? T: I think it was in '62. F: In '62? T: in '62, yes. '62, because in '63 the Katanga secession was over. F: That's it, and those people were flying the flag of the united Congo. T: The flag. F: Because they wanted to show: We... T:... we are against this affair [the secession], we don't like the Katangese flag. The Katanga flag was in the center of the town of Likasi F: Right, the scene is on Sanga Avenue. T: The avenue of the Sanga. T: Right. F: And... T: [It is] there on Basanga Avenue, yes. F: [goes to door and tells children to make less noise, pause] Listen, stop the noise. If they would only stop the noise...?...

13 13 sur :38 F: bon/ F: eh/ tulisema tena: mauniformes: ya ma: na ile foulard rouge: ilikuwa tu ya bakangais...?... T: ilikuwa bakatangais: na ile tenue: ni ya bapoliciers/ F: bapoliciers/ F: na ile motokari inachoma: T: ni tembo: ni tembo/ sawa vile ilikuwa murefu eh? F: oui/ T: apa njo ilikuwa ntundu yulu/ F: na tundu yulu: T: sasa kama inapita: tunasema tembo/ F: tembo [chuckles]/ T: ilitoka tangu: ni ilikuwa ya babelges: baliacha eh? F: babelges baliacha? T: ya temps colonial ya: F: eyo/ T: njo baliachaka/ siku ya le trente juin: ni ile njo ilitembeaka/ F: ahah/ 8. F: donc septante: septante: [Painting 71: The Monster of the Secession] sawa ni: tulisimama mu septante: non: mu soixante neuf: sasa septante ile mammouth/ ile: T: mammouth eh: F: baliyenga mu: Comekat? T: mu Comekat ya Likasi: F:...?... T: sawa vile nilikuambia kama uneanda njia ya L: ya Kolwezi: uku ngambo: utaona ile: atélier tuseme/ T: aah/ F: mammouth/ iliandikwa juu: wee uli: uliisha kuona na mecho yako? T: ile mammouth? F: ah/ T: mi nilikwendaka kuona pale beko nayenga/ sawa b: sawa vile: baba alikuwa mu Likasi: mu Likasi mulikuwa vita kidogo/ T: tunaanzaka kutembea/ F: Alright. F: Well, then we said about the uniforms, those with the red scarf, they belonged to the Katangese, right? T: They were Katangese, and it was the uniform of the police. F: The police. F: And what about that vehicle there which is burning? T: That was tembo, the elephant. Because it was big, right? T: And it had this nozzle up there. F: A nozzle up there. T: We used to call it tembo whenever it came by. F: Elephant [chuckles]. T: It went back to the time of the Belgians, they left is, right? F: The Belgian left it? T: [It was left] from colonial times. T: They had left it behind. It used to be driven around on June 30, Independence day. F: Aha. 8. F: So this is [number] seventy [Painting 71: The Monster of the Secession. We stopped at number seventy, no, sixty-nine; so this is seventy [showing] this mammoth. T: The mammoth, yes. F: Was it at Comekat where they built it? T: At Comekat in Likasi. F:...?... T: As I told you when you take the road to Kolwezi, you will see the workshop. F: Mammoth, it's written on it. Did you see it with your own eyes? T: The mammoth? T: I used to go to the place were they were building it and watch. My father worked in Likasi. There was not much fighting in Likasi. T: So we would roam the town.

14 14 sur :38 T: na benzetu: shee hatukujue asema: aba ni bakatangais: aba ni bahuku: she tulikuwa barafiki tu: batoto kidogo/ tuko nakwenda: mais tuliisha kuwa bantu/ tulikuwa déjà mu cinquième primaire/ T: ah/ cinquième primaire [talking to himself]: non ce n'est pas juste/ ce juste: aah/ nalikuwa déjà nazania mu quatrième/ F: quatrième/ quatrième primaire/ F: na mulitemb: ile wakati mulitembea na bale ba...?...? T: tuna mu tembea: shee tulikuwa na barafiki tu/ T: na rafiki yangu mwenyewe tena ali: potea sasa: alikufa tuseme/ ah: Jean/ Yav/ tunaanza kwenda naye: kutembea kule: T: tunarudia: tulikuwa maparcelles karibu/ kisha ilifika: eh: ile ile mammouth ali: ilifika: eh: Lubumbashi: T: bon/ kufika Lubumbashi: sawa vile nalikuambia: bali: pika: masasi/ F: masasi/ F: na moya: T: sawa nilikuambia kama: eeh: kuko Indien moya/ sawa vile?naliambia...?...: na kuko mimbo ya baluba inyee ile ba...?... F: aah ile mwimbo/ inafaa: inafaa: [chuckles] F: ndiyo/ T: bon/ voilà/ sawa vile mwimbo: banaimbaka asema: nani: ts: char de: bon/ eh [hesitates] utaniexcuser eh? F: ndiyo/ char: T: [sings] char de combat: waswi likutwela/ wafika pa Sabena watwana Indiani/ Iindiani: wafika pa Sabena: watwana Indiani ya Indiani/ Indiani waile ka kimoke kitema/ bakatanga nibipoyo pa nyuma ke banyemaa/ bakatanga nebipoyo pa nyuma/ [singing ends] ni pa mwisho pale eh? T: njo banaanzaka kuimba/ ilikuwa T: With our peers. We did not know about who was originally from Katanga [or not], we were just friends, small children, running together. Although, not really that small because we were already in the fourth grade of primary school. T: Yes, or was it fifth grade [talking to himself], no, that's not true. Or it is, yes, I think I was already in fourth grade. F: Fourth [grade]. T: Yes, fourth grade, elementary school. F: So you went out around at that time with those...?... T: When we went out, it was with friends. T: My [best] friend has passed away, he died. Yes, this was Jean Yav. We used to go out together. T: Then we would come back to our lots that were close. So the mammoth eventually got to Lubumbashi. T: Alright. When it got to Lubumbashi they fired bullets at it. F: Bullets. F: And one person... T: It was a I told you: There was an Indian [who got the mammoth], as I told you. [In those days], the Luba people had a song about... F: Ah, that song, it should... T: Yes [chuckles]. 7 T: So, here it is. This is how it went. The sang: "The -- what do you call it? -- tank..." Well [hesitates], you'll excuse me? F: Yes, about the tank. T: [sings in Luba] Char de combat: waswi likutwela/ wafika pa Sabena watwana Indiani/ Indiani: wafika pa Sabena: watwana Indiani ya Indiani/ Indiani waile ka kimoke kitema/ bakatanga nibipoyo pa nyuma ke banyemaa/ bakatanga nebipoyo pa nyuma/ [singing ends] 8 And that was the end, right?

15 15 sur :38 mwimbo ya révolution ya...?.. F: mwimbo ya Katanga? T: ni ya Katanga/ ilikuwa mimbo ya révolution yabo: à part: nani: Katanga/ T: na bo balikatalaka ile mambo/ sasa bakatangais banakuita asema: barebelles: ya sécession: Katangaise/ T: njo vile ilikuyaka/ T: ahah/ F: ku: ugeuze tu: mu Swahili/ T: bon/ mu Swahili ni kusema: nani: nani: bakatanga balitafuta kuingia: na char: na ile: mammouth yabo/ mm/ sawa: nani: Indiani: alipikaka bunduki moja tu: ilikamata: ku ile char: na ile char: iliwaka: [claps] balikimbia/ balikimbiaka na bifulushi: pa mabega/ F: [chuckles] T: c'est que: mambo: yote iliisha/ ilikuwa chance ya ule: ya ule Indien/ eeh/ F: eeh/ na baonu/ T: c'est ça/ mm/ F: kumbe bale bengine bote banakimbia: paka ile Indien? T: ah ile Indien: F: ule Indien: T: njo banakimbia/ F: ahah/ T: ehem/ ah bale bote banakimbia: banakimbia char/ F: ndiyo/ T: bale baonu/ F: ndiyo/ T: banakimbia: pake ula Indien alifunga roho asema kama nikufwa: nikufwe/ njo alipika: ndani ya ntundu ile ya: canon: T: et puis kinawaka moto/ unaona ile ma: bunduki yote iko napika: ile ma: ma: ma kama ni mabombes kama nini: beko napika kule: F: eeh/ T: iko napasuka tu/ F: eeh/ T: yee anakwenda tu/ F: eeh/ T: That's the song they sang, it was a revolutionary song... F: A song from Katanga? T: It was from Katanga. It was a song of their Katangese revolution. T: They were against [the secession]. So the Katangese called them rebels against the secession of Katanga. 9 T: That's how it was. F: Translate [the song] in Swahili. T: Alright, in Swahili it says, "The Katangese wanted to get into the tank, that mammoth of theirs." Mm-hmm. "Then an Indian fired his gun just once and got the tank. And they 10 fled [claps] and the tank stayed behind. They ran away, their belongings [lit. bundles] on their shoulders. F: [chuckles] T: And that was the end of that affair. It was that Indian's luck. F: Some one from the UN. T: Right, mm-hmm. F: So, all the others ran away, just this Indian... T: Ah, this Indian... F: This Indian... T:...[fired a shot and] they ran away. T: Yes, all of them ran away from the tank. T: All [the soldiers] of the UN... T:... they ran away, only this Indian soldier had the courage to say: "If I die, I die." Then he fired his rifle right into the nozzle of the cannon. T: There was an explosion. You see [in the painting] that all [the tank's] guns went off, so did the bombs, or whatever was inside. T: Everything exploded. T: [And then] he just walked away.

16 16 sur :38 9. F: bon: na tena: massacre ya Kipushi: ni [Painting 72: The Massacre of the Luba at Kipushi] T: oui/ massacre ya Kipushi: F: hapa ni s: numéro septante: hapa septante et un: F: paka ku: ilikuwa tu ndani ya kiwanza: ao mbele: T: ilikuwa ndani ya mugini/ F: ndani ya mugini/ T: c'est que ni ku nyumba: ku nyumba/ kama banafika kule: F: mu nyumba mm/ T: batakutosha na famille yako yote/ eh? ilikuya: c'est vrai ts/ F: kumbe: sikukuwa mu usine ao mu mu: mu: T: hapana ile tunareprésenter: juu ya F: mungoti: T: mufahamu kama: ni mu Kipushi/ c'est que ni mu: ni ku mu: fasi ya mungoti tuseme/ F: ni vile uliweka: mungoti: T: ni kuonyesha tu asema ni fasi fulani/ mm? sawa ni kitu munene: ilikuwa kintu munene: F: ile ile munene: inaitwa namna gani? T: ile: shee tuko naita kama ni mungoti/ F: mungoti/ T: ku mungoti/ mm/ sawa kwa sasa hapa kama tunataka kudessiner Kipushi: kusema mambo ya mu Kispushi: tutafanya puits cinq/ T: ile: ile nani: kama...?... munene/ F: oui oui/ na hii: ilikuwa ya zamani? T: ii ilikuwa ni ile ya zamani/ ni mine: ni nani: Prince Léopold/ sasa banaita asema miki: MK/ F: na baliua tu ba: T: baliua batu mingine sana/ F: minaona tu mwanaume/ T: na: unaona banamuke balikuyakako: na batoto benyewe/ F: eyo/ T: ilikuya wale wanakuta: weye: banamitosha ndani ya nyumba: kama unaisha kukomea: uko na mama yako 9. F: Fine, and then the massacre of Kipushi [Painting 72: The Massacre of the Luba at Kipushi]. T: Yes, the massacre of Kipushi. F: Here we get to number seventy, seventy-one. T: Right. F: This was on the grounds of the mind, or in front of it. T: It was in the settlement. F: Inside the settlement. T: They came to the houses over there. F: In the houses. T: They would take you with your whole family [from your house], right?. This happened, it's the truth. F: So this was not in the mine or in... T: No, I represent [the mine] so it will be... F: The mine. T:... so it will be recognized that it happened in Kipushi which is a mining town. F: This is why you put the mine [in the picture]. T: It is to show where it was. Mm-hmm? Because it is an impressive thing, it was an impressive thing. F: What are those tall structures called? T: We call them pits. F: Pits. T: At the pits, mm-hmm. Nowadays, when we want to draw Kipushi or tell of something that happened in Kipushi, we'll paint Pit Number 5. T: This is the tall one. F: And this [pit], had it been there since long ago? T: It was the old one, it's the mine "Prince Léopold." Nowadays they call it MK. F: So they just killed... T: They killed many, many people. F: I seem to see only men. T: You also see women who were there, and even children. T: What happened was that if those killers caught you at home they

17 17 sur :38 mwenye kuzala: banasema: bakia naye: akuwe bibi yako/ fanya vile unatufanya/ kama unatafuta kuua/ ata kiisha kufanya: tena banakuua/ ilikuwa mubaya/ F: c'est vrai? T: ahah: ilikuwa mu massacre moya [rummages]:? neno ya kuwazamo/ 10. F: tena: tunaona: mu septante deux: numéro septante deux: [Painting 73: The Death of Dag Hammarskjöld] F: kufa ya: Hammarskjöld/ T: c'est ça/ F: kule?naona Panam: mu USA: T: bon: F: kuko avion ya: T: kuko avion ya USA: sawa vile minasema USA.: Etats Unis d'amérique: T: na drapeau ya l'onu: c'est que ilitoka: ni mu Amérique/ F: njo drapeau yake ya ON: T: ya Amérique: ya: non: ya l'onu/ F: ya l'onu/ T: ah ya l'onu/ ilitoka ni mu Amérique: sawa vile ilikuwa kufika: alifia asema nikichuke mu: Zambie/ T: aina ku pori: ya umu apana/ ilif: asema: ikafika mu Zambie: kisha: apate mukuya kuingia huku/ sasa kufika ile kipande: iliwaka moto: na: alikufa/ ile ma: magambera: F: na hélicopter? gambera? njo gambera? T: gambera: ilikuwa kunatembea juu: njo kwa kuchunga pa ile fasi: et puis hélicopter nayo: ilikuwa kuchuka kuleta kama ni m: ba: pom: bapo: ni banani bale banaitaka? bapompiers/ T: eeh? nazania njo...?... F: mais: Hammarskjöld ni muntu gani? un: a: alitoka wapi? T: Dag Hammarskjöld? T: mais minaz: sijue kabila yake/ would get you outside the house. If you were a grown-up and living with your own mother they would say: "Stay with her, she should be your wife. Do to her what you did to us, 11 when you were out to kill." And then, after you had done it, they still killed you. It was bad. F: Is that true? T: It is. It was some massacre, something to think about. 10. F: Then we see in [painting] seventy-two, number seventy-two...[painting 73: The Death of Dag Hammarskjöld] F: Hammarskjöld's death. T: That's it. F: [On the plane] I see written USA PANAM. T: Fine. F: So this was plane of... T: It was an American plane. That's why I say USA, United States of America. T: And the United Nations emblem. This is to say that it came from America. F: So that is the emblem of the UN. T: Of America, no, of the UN. F: Of the UN. T: Yes, of the UN. [The plane] took off in America and when it came close to its destination, the plane broke down, so the pilot wanted to set it down in Zambia. T: Not in the bush on this side of the border. It got to Zambia and then it was not allowed to enter [the Congo]. Now, when it got there, it was in flames and crashed. And there are Canberra fighters. F: And helicopters? Canberra? Are these Canberras? T: Canberras were patrolling above the site and then there arrived helicopters to bring -- how are they called? -- rescue workers [lit. firemen]. T: Right? I think it is F: But what kind of person was

18 18 sur :38 mais tangu basécrétraires ya nani: ya l'onu: s: général ya: généraux ya l'onu: banaanza kuingia: T: sifahamu makabila yabo/ T: mais ile jina Hammarskjöld: iko: sawa kabila ya ba: ts: ya banani? ah eeeh/ aah: quoi ts? minasahabu kabila hii: ha: minasahabu kabisa kwa lakini/ T: nasahabu/ iko na mu bitabu ya Tintin: minasomaka mara ingine/ 11. F: bon/ septante trois: la mort de Sendwe: [Painting 74: Jason Sendwe's Tomb] F: tuko naona tu kaburi: T: kaburi: F: yake: mu pori: T: mu pori: c'est que ni: F: ni fasi gani? T: ni mu Kalemie/ F: mu Kalemie? T: aah/ zamani ilikuwa Albertville/ F: Albertville/ T: ah njo fasi balimuzikia Sendwe/ nazania Mobutu aliwezea kufika kule: alimuhonorer: mais: na médaille moya sifahamu ma: médailles ile alimuhonorer/ F: ni barebelles banani: barebelles balimuua c'est ça? T: mais: barebelles balimuua/ mais kuko mapsoupçons/ kuko ingine: puisque: lufu ya Kabongo: ya chef Kabongo: njo alikuwa na ku lufu yake: T: c'est que: ba balisirikaka: comment: yee alitoka anakuya mu camp ya refugiés: anakuwa kusikilizana na: Tshombe/ makati ile ya barefugiés/ sasa sawa ilibish: F: Sendwe alikuwa kusikilizana? T: Sendwe alikuyaka na?huyu bwana/ balikuwaka pamoya na baileo: makati ile walikuwa: Hammarskjöld, where was he from? T: Dag Hammarskjöld? T: Well, I think... I don't know his nationality, but ever since there were persons who became secretaries general of the United Nations... T:... I don't know their nationalities. T: But this name Hammarskjöld sounds like he was -- what was it again? I completely forgot. T: I had read about it once in the Tintin comics. 11. F: Alright, seventy-three, the death of Sendwe [Painting 74: Jason Sendwe's Tomb] F: We just see a grave. T: A grave. F: His [grave] in the bush. T: In the bush, because... F: Where is this place? T: It's in Kalemie. F: In Kalemie? T: Yes, which used to be Albertville in the old days. F: Albertville. T: That's the place where they buried Sendwe. And I think then Mobutu came and honored him with some kind of medal but I don't know exactly which. F: It was the rebels who killed Sendwe, is that it? T: Well, the rebels killed him but there are suspicions that others were involved. Because there was also chief Kabongo's death which coincided with that of Sendwe. T: People were angry at him because -- how shall I say? -- he left and came to the refugee camp to make peace with Tshombe. It was the time of the refugees. Now... F: Sendwe came to make peace? T; Sendwe came with this gentleman; he and Ileo were together at the time when the latter was ambassador...

19 19 sur :38 ministre résident: T: humu mu Shaba/ mais sasa bo balisirikaka asema sawa shee tulikufa mingi: wee unakwenda kusumbulia na bale batu: njo balimuua/ njo vile ilikuya/ bengine banasema ni barebelles/ mais normalment ilikuwa paka baluba njo balimuua...?.../ T: ata vile chef Kabongo/ balimuua kuko babaluba...?.../ F: jina yake ni Janson/ T: Janson Sendwe/ F: ulimufahamu? T: ah na: mi nalimuonaka na kumuona/ aah/ alikuwa mu Likasi: mu soixante: deux: banamubeba mu kipoyo humu/ eko nalamukia batu/ T: shee tulikwendaka kule: mvula ilipikaka ile siku kidogo: tulikuwa mingi sana/ tunamuongojea: akukutokeaka ku: entrée ya ville/ mais alitokeaka: ku mwisho ya ville/ atujue mufano...?... F: ngambo ya Kolwezi? T: non: ngambo ya: Kambove/ F: ya Kambove? T: njo kule alitokeaka/ shee bote...?tafukuza mbio: tunakwenda tunamulamukia: T: na salut ya kama ni kufa/ kisha paka pale: njo naanza kumuona paka ku mafoto tu/ F: eyo/ F: unajua alito: ni muntu wa: wa: wa: T: yee: Sendwe? F: wa baluba? ni muntu ya baluba/ baluba ya Kabongo/ njo kwabo/ ni muluba ya Kabongo/ karibu na: frontière ya Kasai/ njo kwabo tu/ bon: nazani ngambo moya [looking at tape]: bado/ paka karibu 12. hapa tunaona mumbunda na mampala/ [Painting 75: Planes Attacking the Lubumbashi Smelter] [chuckles] T: mumbunda ya Gécamines/ mumbunda ya Gécamines/ T:...here in Shaba. But then people got angry: "Many of us are dying, you go and talk to those people." Then they killed him. This is what happened. Some say it was the rebels but it had to be the Luba themselves who killed him... T: Even chief Kabongo, it's the Luba who killed him. F: [Sendwe's first] name was Janson. T: Janson Sendwe. F: Did you know him? T: Just by sight. In '62, he was in Likasi. They carried him around in a tipoy chair and he waved to the people. T: We went there. It was raining a little that day, and there were many of us. We were waiting until he finally appeared at the edge of town. We didn't know what he looked like. F: Coming from Kolwezi? T: No, from Kambove. F: From Kambove? T: That's where he came from. All of us were chased away at once. We had come to greet him. 13 T: It was to be a terrific greeting [lit. a greeting as if to die]. After that I saw him only on photographs. F: Do you know where he came from? T: He, Sendwe? F: From the Luba? He was a Luba of Kabongo. That's where they live. He was a Luba from Kabongo, close to the Kasai border, that's their place. [Looking at tape] I think one side [is full]. No, not yet, but it is getting close. 12. Here we see the smoke stack and the slag heap [Painting 75: Planes Attacking the Lubumbashi Smelter] [chuckles] T: The smoke stack of Gécamines.

20 20 sur :38 T: njo fasi inyee: ilipikana mvita ya Katanga yote tu/ sawa vile itaweza kuwa: histoire murefu: pale juu palikuwa bwana moja: alitombokaka/ aliingia mu armée ya Katanga/ T: alikuwa Kabinda/ F: yee: T: kisha alitombokaka tena: alipandaka yulu ya mumbunda hapa: anaanza kupika: mortier ya Katanga/ ngambo yote/ ya com: ya mazones/ ya macommunes/ mu Kenya: mu Katuba: eko naua tu/ kisha nayee balimuuaka wee/ F: alikuwa wazimu? T: alikuwa tu: sijue kama ni bishilani: kama ni nini/ T: kisha nayee: [rummages] F: oui/ T: kisha na yeye ali: balimuuaka/ abakumuake balimubambaka/ T: balimufungaka mikono: na [claps] kumukokota ku jep [sic]: T: mbio kabisa: sawa anaanguka chini: eko naneenda kumukokota: na kukatika nyama yote: anakufa/ F: banani: ba? T: bakatangais/ yee alikuwa Katangais/ aliingia mu armée ya Katanga/ F: eyo/ T: na kisha alitomboka sasa/ F: [chuckles, unbelieving] F: ile ulijua: eh: uliona ao balikuambia? T: non: balinielezea/ F: baliniele: T: ile ilisemewa tu fasi yote ata ku radio ya Katanga ilimwaka/ F: c'est vrai? na: ile avions: ni avions gani pale? T: ile avions: ni: nani: gambera/ F: ni gambera? T: gambera/ F: ni: gambera ilikuwa ya ONU? T: ilikuwa ya ONU/ Fouga Magister ilikuwa ya: Katanga/ F: ya Katanga/ T: eheh/ F: kumbe kambera: balifanya vita ya: ya Union Minière? T: ya Union Minière/ njo ilikombanaka: na kupika mabombes The smoke stack of Gécamines. T: It marks the one place where there was fighting during the entire Katanga war. [What I can tell you about it] would be a long story [but let me give just this one incident]: There, way up [on the smoke stack], was one man who had been exploding. He had joined the Katangese army... T:...although he was a Kabinda. F: He [was]? T: Eventually, when this attack of rage came on him, he climbed to top of the smoke stack here and began to fire his Katangese mortar, aiming in every direction, right into the communities of Kenia and Katuba. He was killing people. Finally, he was killed, too. F: Was he crazy? T: He was just -- I don't know, was it rancor or what? T: The he too... T: Eventually he was killed, but not right away. They caught him... T:...tied his hands together and dragged him away behind a jeep. T: They went really fast and, as he was on the ground, he was being torn up, his flesh was torn to pieces and he died. F: Who did this? T: The Katangese. He was a Katangese soldier himself, he had joined the Katangese army. T: But eventually [he just couldn't take it anymore and] exploded. F: [chuckles, unbelieving] F: How did you know this? Did you see it or did they tell you [about it]? T: No, they told me about it. F: They told you... T: There was talk about this everywhere, even on Katanga radio went on about it. F: Is that true? And what are those planes there?

21 21 sur :38 mule ba: banani: basoldats bote kukimbia: na mvita: inamalizika/ F: njo mwisho ya mvi: ya vita? T: mvita ya: Katanga/ ni ilimalizika/ F: c'est vrai? 13. F: mais [pulling out Painting 76: The Building of the Town of Mbuji-Mayi]: [aside] acha tu: nani: tupindule mbele... [changing tape] T:...natosha tableau muzuri: [rummage] F: très bien/ ah m: sasa: sawa: tuliisha kusumbulia juu ya mumbunda na mampala: T: bon: tunasumbulia yee...?... F: mais: niko na kintu ya kukuuliza/ T: ah/ F: ni ile tableau bantu banaombaka tu? sawa vile wee unafanya série moya munene: munene sana: mais zaidi: mbele ya kwanza na hii série: ilikuwa tu wa: tableau kama ni tatu: ao inne/ T: bon/ F: bantu bana: uzaka/ T: banauzaka zaidi/ eeh/ sasa ku ile tableaux ingine nakuletea: T: ile njo mawazo yangu/ mais kama l'état alitua: alituachia liberté: tunaenea kutumikayo tena nazani bantu balitafuta kuuza mingi/ bon: sawa hivi: tu: tuna ngopa kwa batu bengine eh? kama unatosha atasema ooh: una: leta mambo ya zamani/ mais sawa vile nalikuambia kama: banduku yetu banauzaka matableau: juu ya: kuweka mu nyumba kufurahi macou: macouleurs/ sawa hivi naweka/ T: They were Canberra fighters. F: Canberra? T: Canberra. F: Did the Canberra belong to the United nations? T: They belonged to the United Nations, Katanga had the Fouga Magister. F: Of Katanga. F: So those Canberras attacked the Union Minière?. T: The Union Minière, there was fighting, bombs were dropped, all the soldiers who were inside ran away, and that was the end of the war. F: That was the end of the war? T: The war of Katanga was finished. F: Is that true? 13. F; But [pulling out Painting 76: The Building of the Town of Mbuji-Mayi]. Wait, lets turn the tape first. T: I came up with a good picture. F: Very well. So, now [we can go on]. We finished talking about the smoke stack and the slag heap. T: Alright, we talked about... F: But I want to ask you something. T: Ah. F: Is this [the smoke stack] one of the paintings people usually ask for? You painted a very long series, but before you started on that series, was it not above all three or four pictures... T: Alright. F:...people usually bought? T: They mostly bought [those], yes. But as to these other pictures I brought you... T:...they were my idea. But if the state would give us the freedom to work, I think people would seek to buy many [pictures]. Alright, as things are, we are afraid of certain people, right? When you come up [with one of them, someone] will say: "Oh, you are bringing old stuff." But it is as I told you, our brothers buy paintings to put hang them at home and to enjoy the colors, for instance, as I put them here [in