1014 Glaucon/Socrates/Adeimantus

Transcription

1 1014 Glauon/Sorats/Aimantus 376 I hav noti that. Th physial qualitis of th guarians ar lar, thn. Ys. An as far as thir souls ar onrn, thy must spirit. That too. But if thy hav naturs lik that, Glauon, won t thy savag to ah othr an to th rst of th itizns? By go, it will har for thm to anything ls. Yt surly thy must gntl to thir own popl an harsh to th nmy. If thy arn t, thy won t wait aroun for othrs to stroy th ity ut will o it thmslvs first. That s tru. What ar w to o, thn? Whr ar w to fin a haratr that is oth gntl an high-spirit at th sam tim? Aftr all, a gntl natur is th opposit of a spirit on. Apparntly. If somon laks ithr gntlnss or spirit, h an t a goo guarian. Yt it sms impossil to omin thm. It follows that a goo guarian annot xist. It looks lik it. I ouln t s a way out, ut on rxamining what ha gon for, I sai: W srv to stuk, for w v lost sight of th analogy w put forwar. How o you man? W ovrlook th fat that thr ar naturs of th sort w thought impossil, naturs in whih ths opposits ar in omin. Whr? You an s thm in othr animals, too, ut spially in th on to whih w ompar th guarian, for you know, of ours, that a pigr og naturally has a haratr of this sort h is gntl as an to thos h s us to an knows, ut th opposit to thos h osn t know. I o know that. So th omination w want is possil aftr all, an our sarh for th goo guarian is not ontrary to natur. Apparntly not. Thn o you think that our futur guarian, sis ing spirit, must also y natur philosophial? How o you man? I on t unrstan. It s somthing ls you s in ogs, an it maks you wonr at th animal. What? Whn a og ss somon it osn t know, it gts angry for anything a happns to it. But whn it knows somon, it wloms him, vn if it has nvr riv anything goo from him. Havn t you vr wonr at that? I v nvr pai any attntion to it, ut oviously that is th way a og havs.

2 Rpuli II 1015 Surly this is a rfin quality in its natur an on that is truly philo- sophial. In what way philosophial? Baus it jugs anything it ss to ithr a frin or an nmy, on no othr asis than that it knows th on an osn t know th othr. An how oul it anything sis a lovr of larning, if it fins what is its own an what is alin to it in trms of knowlg an ignoran? It ouln t. But surly th lov of larning is th sam thing as philosophy or th lov of wisom? It is. Thn, may w onfintly assum in th as of a human ing, too, that if h is to gntl towar his own an thos h knows, h must a lovr of larning an wisom? W may. Philosophy, spirit, sp, an strngth must all, thn, omin in th natur of anyon who is to a fin an goo guarian of our ity. Asolutly. Thn thos ar th traits a potntial guarian woul n at th outst. But how ar w to ring him up an uat him? Will inquiry into that topi ring us any losr to th goal of our inquiry, whih is to isovr th origins of justi an injusti in a ity? W want our aount to aquat, ut w on t want it to any longr than nssary. I rtainly xpt, Glauon s rothr sai, that suh inquiry will furthr our goal. Thn, y go, Aimantus, I sai, w mustn t lav it out, vn if it turns out to a somwhat lngthy affair. No, w mustn t. Com, thn, an just as if w ha th lisur to mak up storis, lt s sri in thory how to uat our mn. All right. What will thir uation? Or is it har to fin anything ttr than that whih has vlop ovr a long prio physial training for ois an musi an potry for th soul? Ys, it woul har. Now, w start uation in musi an potry for physial training, on t w? Of ours. Do you inlu storis unr musi an potry? I o. Arn t thr two kins of story, on tru an th othr fals? Ys. An mustn t our mn uat in oth, ut first in fals ons? 377 I on t unrstan what you man. Don t you unrstan that w first tll storis to hilrn? Ths ar fals, on th whol, though thy hav som truth in thm. An w tll thm to small hilrn for physial training gins.

3 1016 Aimantus/Sorats 378 That s tru. An that s what I mant y saying that w must al with musi an potry for physial training. All right. You know, on t you, that th ginning of any pross is most important, spially for anything young an tnr? It s at that tim that it is most mallal an taks on any pattrn on wishs to imprss on it. Exatly. Thn shall w arlssly allow th hilrn to har any ol storis, tol y just anyon, an to tak lifs into thir souls that ar for th most part opposit to th ons w think thy shoul hol whn thy ar grown up? W rtainly won t. Thn w must first of all, it sms, suprvis th storytllrs. W ll slt thir storis whnvr thy ar fin or autiful an rjt thm whn thy arn t. An w ll prsua nurss an mothrs to tll thir hilrn th ons w hav slt, sin thy will shap thir hilrn s souls with storis muh mor than thy shap thir ois y hanling thm. Many of th storis thy tll now, howvr, must thrown out. Whih ons o you man? W ll first look at th major storis, an y sing how to al with thm, w ll s how to al with th minor ons as wll, for thy xhiit th sam pattrn an hav th sam ffts whthr thy r famous or not. Don t you think so? I o, ut I on t know whih ons you r alling major. Thos that Homr, Hsio, an othr pots tll us, for surly thy ompos fals storis, tol thm to popl, an ar still tlling thm. Whih storis o you man, an what fault o you fin in thm? Th fault on ought to fin first an formost, spially if th falshoo isn t wll tol. For xampl? Whn a story givs a a imag of what th gos an hros ar lik, th way a paintr os whos pitur is not at all lik th things h s trying to paint. You r right to ojt to that. But what sort of thing in partiular o you hav in min? First, tlling th gratst falshoo aout th most important things osn t mak a fin story I man Hsio tlling us aout how Uranus hav, how Cronus punish him for it, an how h was in turn punish y his own son. 10 But vn if it wr tru, it shoul pass ovr in siln, not tol to foolish young popl. An if, for som rason, it has to tol, only a vry fw popl plg to sry an aftr sarifiing not just a pig ut somthing grat an sar shoul har it, so that thir numr is kpt as small as possil. Ys, suh storis ar har to al with. 10. S Hsio, Thogony ,

4 Rpuli II 1017 An thy shouln t tol in our ity, Aimantus. Nor shoul a young prson har it sai that in ommitting th worst rims h s oing nothing out of th orinary, or that if h inflits vry kin of punishmnt on an unjust fathr, h s only oing th sam as th first an gratst of th gos. No, y go, I on t think myslf that ths storis ar fit to tol. In, if w want th guarians of our ity to think that it s shamful to asily provok into hating on anothr, w mustn t allow any storis aout gos warring, fighting, or plotting against on anothr, for thy arn t tru. Th attls of gos an giants, an all th various storis of th gos hating thir familis or frins, shoul nithr tol nor vn wovn in mroiris. If w r to prsua our popl that no itizn has vr hat anothr an that it s impious to o so, thn that s what shoul tol to hilrn from th ginning y ol mn an womn; an as ths hilrn grow olr, pots shoul ompll to tll thm th sam sort of thing. W won t amit storis into our ity whthr allgorial or not aout Hra ing hain y hr son, nor aout Hphastus ing hurl from havn y his fathr whn h tri to hlp his mothr, who was ing atn, nor aout th attl of th gos in Homr. Th young an t istinguish what is allgorial from what isn t, an th opinions thy asor at that ag ar har to ras an apt to om unaltral. For ths rasons, thn, w shoul proaly tak th utmost ar to insur that th first storis thy har aout virtu ar th st ons for thm to har. That s rasonal. But if somon ask us what storis ths ar, what shoul w say? You an I, Aimantus, arn t pots, ut w ar founing a ity. An it s appropriat for th founrs to know th pattrns on whih pots must 379 as thir storis an from whih thy mustn t viat. But w arn t atually going to ompos thir poms for thm. All right. But what prisly ar th pattrns for thology or storis aout th gos? Somthing lik this: Whthr in pi, lyri, or tragy, a go must always rprsnt as h is. In, h must. Now, a go is rally goo, isn t h, an must sri as suh? What ls? An surly nothing goo is harmful, is it? I suppos not. An an what isn t harmful o harm? Nvr. Or an what os no harm o anything a? No. An an what os nothing a th aus of anything a? How oul it? Morovr, th goo is nfiial? Ys.

5 1018 Sorats/Aimantus It is th aus of oing wll? Ys. Th goo isn t th aus of all things, thn, ut only of goo ons; it isn t th aus of a ons. I agr ntirly. Thrfor, sin a go is goo, h is not as most popl laim th aus of vrything that happns to human ings ut of only a fw things, for goo things ar fwr than a ons in our livs. H alon is rsponsil for th goo things, ut w must fin som othr aus for th a ons, not a go. That s vry tru, an I liv it. Thn w won t apt from anyon th foolish mistak Homr maks aout th gos whn h says: Thr ar two urns at th thrshol of Zus, On fill with goo fats, th othr with a ons.... an th prson to whom h givs a mixtur of ths Somtims mts with a a fat, somtims with goo, ut th on who rivs his fat ntirly from th son urn, Evil famin rivs him ovr th ivin arth. W won t grant ithr that Zus is for us Th istriutor of oth goo an a. 380 An as to th raking of th promis tru y Panarus, if anyon tlls us that it was rought aout y Athna an Zus or that Thmis an Zus wr rsponsil for strif an ontntion among th gos, w will not prais him. Nor will w allow th young to har th wors of Ashylus: A go maks mortals guilty Whn h wants uttrly to stroy a hous. 11 An if anyon omposs a pom aout th suffrings of Nio, suh as th on in whih ths lins our, or aout th hous of Plops, or th tal of Troy, or anything ls of that kin, w must rquir him to say that ths things ar not th work of a go. Or, if thy ar, thn pots must look for th kin of aount of thm that w ar now sking, an 11. Th first thr quotations ar from Ilia xxiv Th sours for th fourth an for th quotation from Ashylus ar unknown. Th story of Athna urging Panarus to rak th tru is tol in Ilia iv

6 Rpuli II 1019 say that th ations of th gos ar goo an just, an that thos thy punish ar nfit thry. W won t allow pots to say that th punish ar ma wrth an that it was a go who ma thm so. But w will allow thm to say that a popl ar wrth aus thy ar in n of punishmnt an that, in paying th pnalty, thy ar nfit y th gos. An, as for saying that a go, who is himslf goo, is th aus of a things, w ll fight that in vry way, an w won t allow anyon to say it in his own ity, if it s to wll govrn, or anyon to har it ithr whthr young or ol, whthr in vrs or pros. Ths storis ar not pious, not avantagous to us, an not onsistnt with on anothr. I lik your law, an I ll vot for it. This, thn, is on of th laws or pattrns onrning th gos to whih spakrs an pots must onform, namly, that a go isn t th aus of all things ut only of goo ons. An it s a fully satisfatory law. What aout this son law? Do you think that a go is a sorrr, al to appar in iffrnt forms at iffrnt tims, somtims hanging himslf from his own form into many shaps, somtims iving us y making us think that h has on it? Or o you think h s simpl an last of all likly to stp out of his own form? I an t say offhan. Wll, what aout this? If h stps out of his own form, mustn t h ithr hang himslf or hang y somthing ls? H must. But th st things ar last lial to altration or hang, arn t thy? For xampl, isn t th halthist an strongst oy last hang y foo, rink, an laor, or th halthist an strongst plant y sun, win, an th lik? Of ours. 381 An th most ouragous an most rational soul is last istur or altr y any outsi afftion? Ys. An th sam aount is tru of all artifats, furnitur, houss, an loths. Th ons that ar goo an wll ma ar last altr y tim or anything ls that happns to thm. That s right. Whatvr is in goo onition, thn, whthr y natur or raft or oth, amits last of ing hang y anything ls. So it sms. Now, surly a go an what longs to him ar in vry way in th st onition. How oul thy fail to? Thn a go woul last likly to hav many shaps. In. Thn os h hang or altr himslf? Clarly h os, if in h is altr at all.

7 1020 Sorats/Aimantus Woul h hang himslf into somthing ttr an mor autiful than himslf or somthing wors an uglir? It woul hav to into somthing wors, if h s hang at all, for surly w won t say that a go is fiint in ithr auty or virtu. Asolutly right. An o you think, Aimantus, that anyon, whthr go or human, woul liratly mak himslf wors in any way? No, that s impossil. Is it impossil, thn, for gos to want to altr thmslvs? Sin thy ar th most autiful an st possil, it sms that ah always an unonitionally rtains his own shap. That sms ntirly nssary to m. Thn lt no pot tll us aout Protus or Thtis, or say that Th gos, in th liknss of strangrs from forign lans, Aopt vry sort of shap an visit our itis. 12 Nor must thy prsnt Hra, in thir tragis or othr poms, as a pristss ollting alms for th lif-giving sons of th Argiv rivr Inahus, or tll us othr storis of that sort. Nor must mothrs, living a storis aout th gos wanring at night in th shaps of strangrs from forign lans, trrify thir hilrn with thm. Suh storis lasphm th gos an, at th sam tim, mak hilrn mor owarly. Thy mustn t tol. But though th gos ar unal to hang, o thy nonthlss mak us liv that thy appar in all sorts of ways, iving us through sorry? Prhaps. What? Woul a go willing to fals, ithr in wor or, y prsnting an illusion? I on t know. Don t you know that a tru falshoo, if on may all it that, is hat y all gos an humans? What o you man? I man that no on is willing to tll falshoos to th most important part of himslf aout th most important things, ut of all plas h is most afrai to hav falshoo thr. I still on t unrstan. 12. Oyssy xvii Inahus was th fathr of Io, who was prsut y Hra aus Zus was in lov with hr. Th sour for th part of th story Plato quots is unknown.

8 Rpuli II 1021 That s aus you think I m saying somthing p. I simply man that to fals to on s soul aout th things that ar, to ignorant an to hav an hol falshoo thr, is what vryon woul last of all apt, for vryon hats a falshoo in that pla most of all. That s right. Surly, as I sai just now, this woul most orrtly all tru falshoo ignoran in th soul of somon who has n tol a falshoo. Falshoo in wors is a kin of imitation of this afftion in th soul, an imag of it that oms into ing aftr it an is not a pur falshoo. Isn t that so? Crtainly. An th thing that is rally a falshoo is hat not only y th gos ut y human ings as wll. It sms so to m. What aout falshoo in wors? Whn an to whom is it usful an so not srving of hatr? Isn t it usful against on s nmis? An whn any of our so-all frins ar attmpting, through manss or ignoran, to o somthing a, isn t it a usful rug for prvnting thm? It is also usful in th as of thos storis w wr just talking aout, th ons w tll aus w on t know th truth aout thos anint vnts involving th gos. By making a falshoo as muh lik th truth as w an, on t w also mak it usful? W rtainly o. Thn in whih of ths ways oul a falshoo usful to a go? Woul h mak fals liknsss of anint vnts aus of his ignoran of thm? It woul riiulous to think that. Thn thr is nothing of th fals pot in a go? Not in my viw. Woul h fals, thn, through far of his nmis? Far from it. Baus of th ignoran or manss of his family or frins, thn? No on who is ignorant or ma is a frin of th gos. Thn thr s no rason for a go to spak falsly? Non. Thrfor th amoni an th ivin ar in vry way fr from falshoo. Compltly. A go, thn, is simpl an tru in wor an. H osn t hang himslf or iv othrs y imags, wors, or signs, whthr in visions or in rams. That s what I thought as soon as I har you say it. 383 You agr, thn, that this is our son pattrn for spaking or omposing poms aout th gos: Thy ar not sorrrs who hang thmslvs, nor o thy misla us y falshoos in wors or s.

9 1022 Aimantus/Sorats I agr. So, vn though w prais many things in Homr, w won t approv of th ram Zus snt to Agammnon, nor of Ashylus whn h maks Thtis say that Apollo sang in prophy at hr wing: Aout th goo fortun my hilrn woul hav, Fr of isas throughout thir long livs, An of all th lssings that th frinship of th gos woul ring m, I hop that Phous ivin mouth woul fr of falshoo, Enow as it is with th raft of prophy. But th vry go who sang, th on at th fast, Th on who sai all this, h himslf it is Who kill my son. 14 Whnvr anyon says suh things aout a go, w ll angry with him, rfus him a horus, 15 an not allow his potry to us in th uation of th young, so that our guarians will as go-faring an golik as human ings an. I ompltly nors ths pattrns, h sai, an I woul nat thm as laws. Book III 386 Suh, thn, I sai, ar th kins of storis that I think futur guarians shoul an shoul not har aout th gos from hilhoo on, if thy ar to honor th gos an thir parnts an not tak thir frinship with on anothr lightly. I m sur w r right aout that, at any rat. What if thy ar to ouragous as wll? Shouln t thy tol storis that will mak thm last afrai of ath? Or o you think that anyon vr oms ouragous if h s possss y this far? No, I rtainly on t. An an somon unafrai of ath, prfrring it to fat in attl or slavry, if h livs in a Has full of trrors? Not at all. Thn w must suprvis suh storis an thos who tll thm, an ask thm not to isparag th lif in Has in this unonitional way, ut rathr to prais it, sin what thy now say is nithr tru nor nfiial to futur warriors. W must. 14. In Ilia ii.1 34, Zus sns a ram to Agammnon to promis suss if h attaks Troy immiatly. Th promis is fals. Th sour for th quotation from Ashylus is unknown. 15. I.., ny him th funing nssary to prou his play.

10 Rpuli III 1023 Thn w ll xpung all that sort of isparagmnt, ginning with th following lins: an also ths: I woul rathr laor on arth in srvi to anothr, To a man who is lanlss, with littl to liv on, Than king ovr all th a. 1 H far that his hom shoul appar to gos an mn Draful, ank, an hat vn y th gos. 2 an Alas, thr survivs in th Halls of Has A soul, a mr phantasm, with its wits ompltly gon. 3 an this: An h alon oul think; th othrs ar flitting shaows. 4 an Th soul, laving his lims, ma its way to Has, Lamnting its fat, laving manhoo an youth hin. 5 an ths: 387 an His soul wnt low th arth lik smok, Srhing as it wnt Oyssy xi Oyssus is ing arss y th a Ahills in Has. 2. Ilia xx Th spakr is th go of th unrworl who is afrai that th arth will split opn an rval that his hom is raful, t. 3. Ilia xxiii Ahills spaks ths lins as th soul of th a Patrolus lavs for Has. 4. Oyssy x.495. Cir is spaking to Oyssus aout th propht Tirsias. 5. Ilia xvi Th wors rfr to Patrolus, who has just n mortally woun y Htor. 6. Ilia xxiii Th soul rfrr to is Patrolus.

11 1024 Sorats/Aimantus As whn ats in an awful av Fly aroun srhing if on of thm falls From th lustr on th iling, all linging to on anothr, So thir souls wnt srhing... 7 W ll ask Homr an th othr pots not to angry if w lt ths passags an all similar ons. It isn t that thy arn t poti an plasing to th majority of harrs ut that, th mor poti thy ar, th lss thy shoul har y hilrn or y mn who ar suppos to fr an to far slavry mor than ath. Most rtainly. An th frightning an raful nams for th unrworl must struk out, for xampl, Coytus an Styx, 8 an also th nams for th a, for xampl, thos low an th saplss ons, an all thos nams of things in th unrworl that mak vryon who hars thm shur. Thy may all wll an goo for othr purposs, ut w ar afrai that our guarians will ma softr an mor mallal y suh shurs. An our far is justifi. Thn suh passags ar to struk out? Ys. An pots must follow th opposit pattrn in spaking an writing? Clarly. Must w also lt th lamntations an pitiful sphs of famous mn? W must, if in what w sai for is omplling. Consir though whthr w ar right to lt thm or not. W surly say that a nt man osn t think that ath is a trril thing for somon nt to suffr vn for somon who happns to his frin. W o say that. Thn h won t mourn for him as for somon who has suffr a trril fat. Crtainly not. W also say that a nt prson is most slf-suffiint in living wll an, aov all othrs, has th last n of anyon ls. That s tru. Thn it s lss raful for him than for anyon ls to priv of his son, rothr, possssions, or any othr suh things. Muh lss. Thn h ll last giv way to lamntations an ar misfortun most quitly whn it striks. 7. Oyssy xxiv.6 9. Th souls ar thos of th suitors of Pnlop, whom Oyssus has kill. 8. Coytus mans rivr of wailing or lamnting; Styx mans rivr of hatr or gloom.

12 Rpuli III 1025 Crtainly. W right, thn, to lt th lamntations of famous mn, laving thm to womn (an not vn to goo womn, ithr) an to owarly mn, so that thos w say w ar training to guar our ity will isain 388 to at lik that. That s right. Again, thn, w ll ask Homr an th othr pots not to rprsnt Ahills, th son of a goss, as Lying now on his si, now on his ak, now again On his lly; thn staning up to wanr istrat This way an that on th shor of th unharvst sa. Nor to mak him pik up ashs in oth hans an pour thm ovr his ha, wping an lamnting in th ways h os in Homr. Nor to rprsnt Priam, a los snant of th gos, as ntrating his mn an Rolling aroun in ung, Calling upon ah man y nam. 9 An w ll ask thm vn mor arnstly not to mak th gos lamnt an say: Alas, unfortunat that I am, wrth mothr of a grat son. 10 But, if thy o mak th gos o suh things, at last thy mustn t ar to rprsnt th gratst of th gos as having in so unlikly a fashion as to say: or Alas, with my own ys I s a man who is most ar to m Chas aroun th ity, an my hart lamnts Wo is m, that Sarpon, who is most ar to m, shoul Fat to kill y Patrolus, th son of Mnotius If our young popl, Aimantus, listn to ths storis without riiuling thm as not worth haring, it s harly likly that thy ll onsir th things 9. Th last thr rfrns an quotations ar to Ilia xxiv.3 12, Ilia xviii.23 24, an Ilia xxii , rsptivly. 10. Ilia xviii.54. Thtis, th mothr of Ahills, is mourning his fat among th Nris. 11. Ilia xxii (Zus is wathing Htor ing pursu y Ahills), an Ilia xvi

13 1026 Sorats/Aimantus 389 sri in thm to unworthy of mr human ings lik thmslvs or that thy ll ruk thmslvs for oing or saying similar things whn misfortun striks. Insta, thy ll fl nithr sham nor rstraint ut groan an lamnt at vn insignifiant misfortuns. What you say is ompltly tru. Thn, as th argumnt has monstrat an w must rmain prsua y it until somon shows us a ttr on thy mustn t hav lik that. No, thy mustn t. Morovr, thy mustn t lovrs of laughtr ithr, for whnvr anyon inulgs in violnt laughtr, a violnt hang of moo is likly to follow. So I liv. Thn, if somon rprsnts worthwhil popl as ovrom y laughtr, w won t approv, an w ll approv vn lss if thy rprsnt gos that way. Muh lss. Thn w won t approv of Homr saying things lik this aout th gos: An unqunhal laughtr aros among th lss gos As thy saw Hphastus limping through th hall. 12 Aoring to your argumnt, suh things must rjt. If you want to all it min, ut thy must rjt in any as. Morovr, w hav to onrn aout truth as wll, for if what w sai just now is orrt, an falshoo, though of no us to th gos, is usful to popl as a form of rug, larly w must allow only otors to us it, not privat itizns. Clarly. Thn if it is appropriat for anyon to us falshoos for th goo of th ity, aus of th ations of ithr nmis or itizns, it is th rulrs. But vryon ls must kp away from thm, aus for a privat itizn to li to a rulr is just as a a mistak as for a sik prson or athlt not to tll th truth to his otor or trainr aout his physial onition or for a sailor not to tll th aptain th fats aout his own onition or that of th ship an th rst of its rw in it is a wors mistak than ithr of ths. That s ompltly tru. An if th rulr aths somon ls tlling falshoos in th ity Any on of th raftsmn, Whthr a propht, a otor who hals th sik, or a makr of spars Ilia i Oyssy xvii

14 Rpuli III 1027 h ll punish him for introuing somthing as suvrsiv an strutiv to a ity as it woul to a ship. H will, if prati is to follow thory. What aout moration? Won t our young popl also n that? Of ours. An arn t ths th most important aspts of moration for th majority of popl, namly, to oy th rulrs an to rul th plasurs of rink, sx, an foo for thmslvs? That s my opinion at any rat. Thn w ll say that th wors of Homr s Dioms ar wll put: Sit own in siln, my frin, an prsua y m. an so is what follows: Th Ahaans, rathing agrnss for attl, Marh in siln, faring thir ommanrs. an all othr suh things. Thos ar wll put. But what aout this? Win-ir, with th ys of a og an th hart of a r 14 an th rst, is it or any othr hastrong wors spokn in pros or potry y privat itizns against thir rulrs wll put? 390 No, thy arn t. I on t think thy ar suital for young popl to har not, in any as, with a viw to making thm morat. Though it isn t surprising that thy ar plasing nough in othr ways. What o you think? Th sam as you. What aout making th lvrst man say that th finst thing of all is whn Th tals ar wll lan With ra an mat, an th winarr Draws win from th mixing owl an pours it in th ups. or 14. Th last thr itations ar, rsptivly, Ilia iv.412, whr Dioms ruks his squir an quits him; Ilia iii.8 an iv.431, not in fat (in our Homr txt) ajant to on anothr or th pring; an Ilia i.225 (Ahills is insulting his ommanr, Agammnon).

15 1028 Sorats/Aimantus Dath y starvation is th most pitiful fat. 15 Do you think that suh things mak for slf-ontrol in young popl? Or what aout having Zus, whn all th othr gos ar aslp an h alon is awak, asily forgt all his plans aus of sxual sir an so ovrom y th sight of Hra that h osn t vn want to go insi ut wants to possss hr thr on th groun, saying that his sir for hr is vn gratr than it was whn without thir parnts knowlg thy wr first lovrs? Or what aout th haining togthr of Ars an Aphroit y Hphastus 16 also th rsult of sxual passion? No, y go, non of that sms suital to m. But if, on th othr han, thr ar wors or s of famous mn, who ar xhiiting nuran in th fa of vrything, surly thy must sn or har. For xampl, H struk his hst an spok to his hart: Enur, my hart, you v suffr mor shamful things than this. 17 Thy rtainly must. Now, w mustn t allow our mn to mony-lovrs or to rial with gifts. Crtainly not. Thn th pots mustn t sing to thm: Gifts prsua gos, an gifts prsua rvr kings Nor must Phonix, th tutor of Ahills, prais as spaking with moration whn h aviss him to tak th gifts an fn th Ahaans, ut not to giv up his angr without gifts. 19 Nor shoul w think suh things to worthy of Ahills himslf. Nor shoul w agr that h was suh a mony-lovr that h woul apt th gifts of Agammnon or rlas th orps of Htor for a ransom ut not othrwis. It rtainly isn t right to prais suh things. It is only out of rspt for Homr, in, that I hsitat to say that it is positivly impious to aus Ahills of suh things or to liv othrs who say thm. Or to mak him arss Apollo in ths wors: 15. Oyssus in Oyssy ix.8 10; Oyssy xii.342 (Eurylohus urgs th mn to slay th attl of Hlios in Oyssus asn). 16. Oyssy viii.266 ff. 17. Oyssy xx Th spakr is Oyssus. 18. Th sour of th passag is unknown. Cf. Euripis, Ma Ilia ix

16 Rpuli III 1029 You v injur m, Farshootr, most aly of th gos; An I punish you, if I ha th powr. 20 Or to say that h isoy th rivr a go an was ray to fight it, or that h onsrat hair to th a Patrolus, whih was alray onsrat to a iffrnt rivr, Sprhius. It isn t to liv that h i any of ths. Nor is it tru that h ragg th a Htor aroun th tom of Patrolus or massar th aptivs on his pyr. 21 So w ll ny that. Nor will w allow our popl to liv that Ahills, who was th son of a goss an of Plus (th most morat of mn an th granson of Zus) an who was rought up y th most wis Chiron, was so full of innr turmoil as to hav two isass in his soul slavishnss aompani y th lov of mony, on th on han, an arrogan towars gos an humans, on th othr. That s right. W rtainly won t liv suh things, nor will w allow it to sai that Thsus, th son of Posion, an Pirithous, th son of Zus, ngag in trril kinappings, 22 or that any othr hro an son of a go ar to o any of th trril an impious s that thy ar now falsly sai to hav on. W ll ompl th pots ithr to ny that th hros i suh things or ls to ny that thy wr hilrn of th gos. Thy mustn t say oth or attmpt to prsua our young popl that th gos ring aout vil or that hros ar no ttr than humans. As w sai arlir, ths things ar oth impious an untru, for w monstrat that it is impossil for th gos to prou a things. 23 Of ours. Morovr, ths storis ar harmful to popl who har thm, for vryon will ray to xus himslf whn h s a, if h is prsua that similar things oth ar ing on now an hav n on in th past y Clos snants of th gos, Thos nar to Zus, to whom longs Th anstral altar high up on Mount Ia, In whom th loo of amons has not wakn. 24 For that rason, w must put a stop to suh storis, lst thy prou in th youth a strong inlination to o a things Ilia xxii.15, Th last four rfrns ar to Ilia xxi.232 ff., Ilia xxiii , Ilia xxiv.14 18, an Ilia xxiii.175, rsptivly. 22. Aoring to som lgns, Thsus an Pirithous aut Hln an tri to aut Prsphon from Has. 23. S 380 ff. 24. Thought to from Ashylus lost play Nio.

17 1030 Aimantus/Sorats 393 Asolutly. Now, isn t thr a kin of story whos ontnt w havn t yt isuss? So far w v sai how on shoul spak aout gos, hros, amons, an things in Has. W hav. Thn what s lft is how to al with storis aout human ings, isn t it? Oviously. But w an t sttl that mattr at prsnt. Why not? Baus I think w ll say that what pots an pros-writrs tll us aout th most important mattrs onrning human ings is a. Thy say that many unjust popl ar happy an many just ons wrth, that injusti is profital if it saps ttion, an that justi is anothr s goo ut on s own loss. I think w ll prohiit ths storis an orr th pots to ompos th opposit kin of potry an tll th opposit kin of tals. Don t you think so? I know so. But if you agr that what I sai is orrt, ouln t I rply that you v agr to th vry point that is in qustion in our whol isussion? An you right to mak that rply. Thn w ll agr aout what storis shoul tol aout human ings only whn w v isovr what sort of thing justi is an how y natur it profits th on who has it, whthr h is liv to just or not. That s vry tru. This onlus our isussion of th ontnt of storis. W shoul now, I think, invstigat thir styl, for w ll thn hav fully invstigat oth what shoul sai an how it shoul sai. I on t unrstan what you man, Aimantus rspon. But you must, I sai. May you ll unrstan it ttr if I put it this way. Isn t vrything sai y pots an storytllrs a narrativ aout past, prsnt, or futur vnts? What ls oul it? An arn t ths narrativs ithr narrativ alon, or narrativ through imitation, or oth? I n a larr unrstaning of that as wll. I sm to a riiulously unlar tahr. So, lik thos who ar inomptnt at spaking, I won t try to al with th mattr as a whol, ut I ll tak up a part an us it as an xampl to mak plain what I want to say. Tll m, o you know th ginning of th Ilia, whr th pot tlls us that Chryss gs Agammnon to rlas his aughtr, that Agammnon harshly rjts him, an that, having fail, Chryss prays to th go against th Ahaans? I o. You know, thn, that up to th lins:

18 Rpuli III 1031 An h gg all th Ahaans But spially th two sons of Atrus, th ommanrs of th army, 25 th pot himslf is spaking an osn t attmpt to gt us to think that th spakr is somon othr than himslf. Aftr this, howvr, h spaks as if h wr Chryss an tris as far as possil to mak us think that th spakr isn t Homr ut th prist himslf an ol man. An h omposs prtty wll all th rst of his narrativ aout vnts in Troy, Ithaa, an th whol Oyssy in this way. That s right. Now, th sphs h maks an th parts twn thm ar oth narrativ? Of ours. But whn h maks a sph as if h wr somon ls, won t wsay that h maks his own styl as muh lik that of th iniat spakr as possil? W rtainly will. Now, to mak onslf lik somon ls in voi or apparan is to imitat th prson on maks onslf lik. Crtainly. In ths passags, thn, it sms that h an th othr pots fft thir narrativ through imitation. That s right. If th pot nvr hi himslf, th whol of his pom woul narrativ without imitation. In orr to prvnt you from saying again that you on t unrstan, I ll show you what this woul lik. If Homr sai that Chryss am with a ransom for his aughtr to suppliat th Ahaans, spially th kings, an aftr that in t spak as if h ha om Chryss, ut still as Homr, thr woul no imitation ut rathr simpl narrativ. It woul hav gon somthing lik this I ll spak without mtr sin I m no pot: An th prist am an pray that th gos woul allow thm to aptur Troy an saf aftrwars, that thy apt th ransom an fr his aughtr, an thus show rvrn for th go. Whn h sai this, th othrs show thir rspt for th prist an onsnt. But Agammnon was angry an orr him to lav an nvr to rturn, lst his pristly wan an th wraths of th go shoul fail to prott him. H sai that, for fring th aughtr, h grow ol in Argos y hr si. H tol Chryss to go away an not to mak him angry, if h want to gt hom safly. Whn th ol man har this, h was frightn 394 an wnt off in siln. But whn h lft th amp h pray at lngth to Apollo, alling him y his various titls an rmining him of his own srvis to him. If any of thos srvis ha n foun plasing, whthr 25. Ilia i

19 1032 Sorats/Aimantus or not. Or os this also follow from our arlir statmnt that ah inivi- ual woul o a fin jo of on oupation, not of many, an that if h tri th lattr an al in many things, h surly fail to ahiv istintion in any of thm? H woul in. Thn, osn t th sam argumnt also hol for imitation a singl iniviual an t imitat many things as wll as h an imitat on? No, h an t. Thn, h ll harly al to pursu any worthwhil way of lif whil at th sam tim imitating many things an ing an imitator. Evn in th 395 it was th uiling of tmpls or th sarifi of vitims, h ask in rturn that th arrows of th go shoul mak th Ahaans pay for his tars. That is th way w gt simpl narrativ without imitation. I unrstan. Thn also unrstan that th opposit ours whn on omits th wors twn th sphs an lavs th sphs y thmslvs. I unrstan that too. Tragis ar lik that. That s asolutly right. An now I think that I an mak lar to you what I ouln t for. On kin of potry an story-tlling mploys only imitation tragy an omy, as you say. Anothr kin mploys only narration y th pot himslf you fin this most of all in ithyrams. A thir kin uss oth as in pi potry an many othr plas, if you follow m. Now I unrstan what you wr trying to say. Rmmr, too, that for all that w sai that w ha alt with what must sai in storis, ut that w ha yt to invstigat how it must sai. Ys, I rmmr. Wll, this, mor prisly, is what I mant: W n to om to an agrmnt aout whthr w ll allow pots to narrat through imitation, an, if so, whthr thy ar to imitat som things ut not othrs an what things ths ar, or whthr thy ar not to imitat at all. I ivin that you r looking into th qustion of whthr or not w ll allow tragy an omy into our ity. Prhaps, an prhaps vn mor than that, for I myslf rally on t know yt, ut whatvr irtion th argumnt lows us, that s whr w must go. Fin. Thn, onsir, Aimantus, whthr our guarians shoul imitators as of two kins of imitation that ar thought to losly akin, suh as tragy an omy, th sam popl arn t al to o oth of thm wll. Di you not just say that ths wr oth imitations? I i, an you r quit right that th sam popl an t o oth. Nor an thy oth rhapsos an ators. Tru. In, not vn th sam ators ar us for tragy an omy. Yt all ths ar imitations, arn t thy?

20 Rpuli III 1033 Thy ar. An human natur, Aimantus, sms to m to mint in vn smallr oins than ths, so that it an nithr imitat many things wll nor o th ations thmslvs, of whih thos imitations ar liknsss. That s asolutly tru. Thn, if w r to prsrv our first argumnt, that our guarians must kpt away from all othr rafts so as to th raftsmn of th ity s from, an xlusivly that, an o nothing at all xpt what ontri- uts to it, thy must nithr o nor imitat anything ls. If thy o imitat, thy must imitat from hilhoo what is appropriat for thm, namly, popl who ar ouragous, slf-ontroll, pious, an fr, an thir ations. Thy mustn t lvr at oing or imitating slavish or shamful ations, lst from njoying th imitation, thy om to njoy th rality. Or havn t you noti that imitations prati from youth om part of natur an sttl into haits of gstur, voi, an thought? I hav in. Thn w won t allow thos for whom w profss to ar, an who must grow into goo mn, to imitat ithr a young woman or an olr on, or on ausing hr husan, quarrling with th gos, or ragging aus sh thinks hrslf happy, or on suffring misfortun an possss y sorrows an lamntations, an vn lss on who is ill, in lov, or in laor. That s asolutly right. Nor must thy imitat ithr mal or fmal slavs oing slavish things. No, thy mustn t. Nor a mn, it sms, who ar owars an ar oing th opposit of what w sri arlir, namly, lilling an riiuling ah othr, using shamful languag whil runk or sor, or wronging thmslvs an othrs, whthr in wor or, in th various othr ways that ar typial of suh popl. Thy mustn t om austom to making 396 thmslvs lik mamn in ithr wor or, for, though thy must know aout ma an viious mn an womn, thy must nithr o nor imitat anything thy o. That s asolutly tru. Shoul thy imitat mtal workrs or othr raftsmn, or thos who row in trirms, or thir tim-kprs, or anything ls onnt with ships? How oul thy, sin thy arn t to onrn thmslvs with any of thos oupations? An what aout this? Will thy imitat nighing horss, llowing ulls, roaring rivrs, th rashing sa, thunr, or anything of that sort? Thy ar forin to ma or to imitat ma popl. If I unrstan what you man, thr is on kin of styl an narrativ that somon who is rally a gntlman woul us whnvr h want to narrat somthing, an anothr kin, unlik this on, whih his opposit y natur an uation woul favor, an in whih h woul narrat. Whih styls ar thos?

21 1034 Sorats/Aimantus/Glauon 397 Wll, I think that whn a morat man oms upon th wors or ations of a goo man in his narrativ, h ll willing to rport thm as if h wr that man himslf, an h won t asham of that kin of imitation. H ll imitat this goo man most whn h s ating in a faultlss an intllignt mannr, ut h ll o so lss, an with mor rlutan, whn th goo man is upst y isas, sxual passion, runknnss, or som othr misfortun. Whn h oms upon a haratr unworthy of himslf, howvr, h ll unwilling to mak himslf sriously rsml that infrior haratr xpt prhaps for a rif prio in whih h s oing somthing goo. Rathr h ll asham to o somthing lik that, oth aus h s unprati in th imitation of suh popl an aus h an t stan to shap an mol himslf aoring to a wors pattrn. H spiss this in his min, unlss it s just on in play. That sms likly. H ll thrfor us th kin of narrativ w sri in aling with th Homri pis a momnt ago. His styl will partiipat oth in imitation an in th othr kin of narrativ, ut thr ll only a littl it of imitation in a long story? Or is thr nothing in what I say? That s prisly how th pattrn for suh a spakr must. As for somon who is not of this sort, th mor infrior h is, th mor willing h ll to narrat anything an to onsir nothing unworthy of himslf. As a rsult, h ll unrtak to imitat sriously an for a larg auin all th things w just mntion thunr, th souns of win, hail, axls, pullys, trumpts, fluts, pips, an all th othr instrumnts, vn th ris of ogs, shp, an irs. An this man s styl will onsist ntirly of imitation in voi an gstur, or ls inlu only a small it of plain narrativ. That too is rtain. Ths, thn, ar th two kins of styl I was talking aout. Thr ar ths two. Th first of ths styls involvs littl variation, so that if somon provis a musial mo an rhythm appropriat to it, won t th on who spaks orrtly rmain with a fw minor hangs prtty wll within that mo an rhythm throughout? That s prisly what h ll o. What aout th othr kin of styl? Dosn t it rquir th opposit if it is to spak appropriatly, namly, all kins of musial mos an all kins of rhythms, aus it ontains vry typ of variation? That s xatly right. Do all pots an spakrs aopt on or othr of ths pattrns of styl or a mixtur of oth? Nssarily. What ar w to o, thn? Shall w amit all ths into our ity, only on of th pur kins, or th mix on? If my opinion is to prvail, w ll amit only th pur imitator of a nt prson.

22 Rpuli III 1035 An yt, Aimantus, th mix styl is plasant. In, it is y far th most plasing to hilrn, thir tutors, an th vast majority of popl. Ys, it is th most plasing. But prhaps you on t think that it harmonizs with our onstitution, aus no on in our ity is two or mor popl simultanously, sin ah os only on jo. In, it osn t harmoniz. An isn t it aus of this that it s only in our ity that w ll fin a olr who is a olr an not also a aptain along with his oling, an a farmr who is a farmr an not also a juror along with his farming, an a solir who is a solir an not a mony-makr in aition to his soliring, an so with thm all? That s tru. It sms, thn, that if a man, who through lvr training an om anything an imitat anything, shoul arriv in our ity, wanting to giv a 398 prforman of his poms, w shoul ow own for him as somon holy, wonrful, an plasing, ut w shoul tll him that thr is no on lik him in our ity an that it isn t lawful for thr to. W shoul pour myrrh on his ha, rown him with wraths, an sn him away to anothr ity. But, for our own goo, w ourslvs shoul mploy a mor austr an lss plasur-giving pot an storytllr, on who woul imitat th sph of a nt prson an who woul tll his storis in aoran with th pattrns w lai own whn w first unrtook th uation of our solirs. That is rtainly what w o if it wr up to us. It s likly, thn, that w hav now omplt our isussion of th part of musi an potry that onrns sph an storis, for w v spokn oth of what is to sai an of how it is to sai. I agr. Dosn t it rmain, thn, to isuss lyri os an songs? Clarly. An ouln t anyon isovr what w woul say aout thm, givn that it has to in tun with what w v alray sai? Glauon laugh an sai: I m afrai, Sorats, that I m not to inlu unr anyon, for I on t hav a goo nough ia at th momnt of what w r to say. Of ours, I hav my suspiions. Nonthlss, I sai, you know that, in th first pla, a song onsists of thr lmnts wors, harmoni mo, an rhythm. Ys, I o know that. As far as wors ar onrn, thy ar no iffrnt in songs than thy ar whn not st to musi, so mustn t thy onform in th sam way to th pattrns w stalish just now? Thy must. Furthr, th mo an rhythm must fit th wors. Of ours. An w sai that w no longr n irgs an lamntations among our wors.

23 1036 Glauon/Sorats 399 W i, in. What ar th lamnting mos, thn? You tll m, sin you r musial. Th mixo-lyian, th syntono-lyian, an som othrs of that sort. Arn t thy to xlu, thn? Thy r uslss vn to nt womn, lt alon to mn. Crtainly. Drunknnss, softnss, an ilnss ar also most inappropriat for our guarians. How oul thy not? What, thn, ar th soft mos suital for rinking-partis? Th Ionian an thos Lyian mos that ar sai to rlax. Coul you vr us ths to mak popl warriors? Nvr. An now all you hav lft is th Dorian an Phrygian mos. I on t know all th musial mos. Just lav m th mo that woul suitaly imitat th ton an rhythm of a ouragous prson who is ativ in attl or oing othr violnt s, or who is failing an faing wouns, ath, or som othr misfortun, an who, in all ths irumstans, is fighting off his fat staily an with slf-ontrol. Lav m also anothr mo, that of somon ngag in a paful, unfor, voluntary ation, prsuaing somon or asking a favor of a go in prayr or of a human ing through tahing an xhortation, or, on th othr han, of somon sumitting to th suppliations of anothr who is tahing him an trying to gt him to hang his min, an who, in all ths irumstans, is ating with moration an slfontrol, not with arrogan ut with unrstaning, an is ontnt with th outom. Lav m, thn, ths two mos, whih will st imitat th violnt or voluntary tons of voi of thos who ar morat an ouragous, whthr in goo fortun or in a. Th mos you r asking for ar th vry ons I mntion. Wll, thn, w ll hav no n for polyharmoni or multistring instrumnts to aompany our os an songs. It osn t sm so to m at last. Thn w won t n th raftsmn who mak triangular luts, harps, an all othr suh multistring an polyharmoni instrumnts. Apparntly not. What aout flut-makrs an flut-playrs? Will you allow thm into th ity? Or isn t th flut th most many-string of all? An arn t th panharmoni instrumnts all imitations of it? 26 Clarly. Th lyr an th ithara ar lft, thn, as usful in th ity, whil in th ountry, thr som sort of pip for th shphrs to play. That is what our argumnt shows, at last. 26. Th instrumnt hr is th aulos, whih was not rally a flut ut a r instrumnt. It was spially goo at onvying motion.

24 Rpuli III 1037 Wll, w rtainly arn t oing anything nw in prfrring Apollo an his instrumnts to Marsyas an his. 27 By go, it osn t sm as though w ar. An, y th og, without ing awar of it, w v n purifying th ity w rntly sai was luxurious. That s aus w r ing morat. Thn lt s purify th rst. Th nxt topi aftr musial mos is th rgulation of mtr. W shouln t striv to hav ithr sutlty or grat varity in mtr. Rathr, w shoul try to isovr what ar th rhythms of somon who las an orr an ouragous lif an thn aapt th mtr an th tun to his wors, not his wors to thm. What ths 400 rhythms atually ar is for you to say, just as in th as of th mos. I rally on t know what to say. I an tll you from osrvation that thr ar thr asi kins of mtrial ft out of whih th othrs ar onstrut, just as thr ar four in th as of mos. But I an t tll you whih sort imitats whih sort of lif. Thn w ll onsult with Damon as to whih mtrial ft ar suit to slavishnss, insoln, manss, an th othr vis an whih ar suit to thir opposits. I think I v har him talking aout an noplion, whih is a omposit mtrial phras (although I m not lar on this), an also aout atyli or hroi mtr, whih h arrang, I on t know how, to qual up an own in th intrhang of long an short. I think h all on foot an iamus, anothr a troh, assigning a long an a short to oth of thm. In th as of som of ths, I think h approv or isapprov of th tmpo of th foot as muh as of th rhythm itslf, or of som omination of th two I an t tll you whih. But, as I sai, w ll lav ths things to Damon, sin to mark off th iffrnt kins woul rquir a long argumnt. Or o you think w shoul try it? No, I rtainly on t. But you an isrn, an t you, that gra an gralssnss follow goo an a rhythm rsptivly? Of ours. Furthr, if, as w sai just now, rhythm an mo must onform to th wors an not vi vrsa, thn goo rhythm follows fin wors an is similar to thm, whil a rhythm follows th opposit kin of wors, an th sam for harmony an isharmony. To sur, ths things must onform to th wors. What aout th styl an ontnt of th wors thmslvs? Don t thy onform to th haratr of th spakr s soul? Of ours. An th rst onform to th wors? 27. Aftr Athna ha invnt th aulos, sh isar it aus it istort hr faturs to play it. It was pik up y th satyr Marsyas, who was foolish nough to hallng Apollo (invntor of th lyr) to a musial ontst. H was fat, an Apollo flay him aliv. Satyrs wr stial in thir havior an sirs spially thir sxual sirs.

25 1038 Glauon/Sorats Ys. Thn fin wors, harmony, gra, an rhythm follow simpliity of haratr an I o not man this in th sns in whih w us simpliity as a uphmism for simpl-minnss ut I man th sort of fin an goo haratr that has vlop in aoran with an intllignt plan. That s asolutly rtain. An must not our young popl vrywhr aim at ths, if thy ar to o thir own work? Thy must, in. Now, surly painting is full of ths qualitis, as ar all th rafts similar to it; waving is full of thm, an so ar mroiry, arhittur, an th rafts that prou all th othr furnishings. Our oily natur is full of thm, as ar th naturs of all growing things, for in all of ths thr is gra an gralssnss. An gralssnss, a rhythm, an isharmony ar akin to a wors an a haratr, whil thir opposits ar akin to an ar imitations of th opposit, a morat an goo haratr. Asolutly. Is it, thn, only pots w hav to suprvis, omplling thm to mak an imag of a goo haratr in thir poms or ls not to ompos thm among us? Or ar w also to giv orrs to othr raftsmn, foriing thm to rprsnt whthr in piturs, uilings, or any othr works a haratr that is viious, unrstrain, slavish, an gralss? Ar w to allow somon who annot follow ths instrutions to work among us, so that our guarians will rought up on imags of vil, as if in a maow of a grass, whr thy rop an graz in many iffrnt plas vry ay until, littl y littl, thy unwittingly aumulat a larg vil in thir souls? Or must w rathr sk out raftsmn who ar y natur al to pursu what is fin an graful in thir work, so that our young popl will liv in a halthy pla an nfit on all sis, an so that somthing of thos fin works will strik thir ys an ars lik a rz that rings halth from a goo pla, laing thm unwittingly, from hilhoo on, to rsmlan, frinship, an harmony with th auty of rason? Th lattr woul y far th st uation for thm. Arn t ths th rasons, Glauon, that uation in musi an potry is most important? First, aus rhythm an harmony prmat th innr part of th soul mor than anything ls, affting it most strongly an ringing it gra, so that if somon is proprly uat in musi an potry, it maks him graful, ut if not, thn th opposit. Son, aus anyon who has n proprly uat in musi an potry will sns it autly whn somthing has n omitt from a thing an whn it hasn t n finly raft or finly ma y natur. An sin h has th right istasts, h ll prais fin things, plas y thm, riv thm into his soul, an, ing nurtur y thm, om fin an goo. H ll rightly ojt to what is shamful, hating it whil h s still young an unal to grasp th rason, ut, having n uat in this way, h will

26 Rpuli III 1039 wlom th rason whn it oms an rogniz it asily aus of its kinship with himslf. Ys, I agr that thos ar th rasons to provi uation in musi an potry. It s just th way it was with larning how to ra. Our aility wasn t aquat until w raliz that thr ar only a fw lttrs that our in all sorts of iffrnt ominations, an that whthr writtn larg or small 28 thy wr worthy of our attntion, so that w pik thm out agrly whrvr thy ourr, knowing that w wouln t omptnt rars until w knw our lttrs. Tru. An isn t it also tru that if thr ar imags of lttrs rflt in mirrors or watr, w won t know thm until w know th lttrs thmslvs, for oth ailitis ar parts of th sam raft an isiplin? Asolutly. Thn, y th gos, am I not right in saying that nithr w, nor th guarians w ar raising, will uat in musi an potry until w know th iffrnt forms of moration, ourag, franknss, highminnss, an all thir kinr, an thir opposits too, whih ar moving aroun vrywhr, an s thm in th things in whih thy ar, oth thmslvs an thir imags, an o not isrgar thm, whthr thy ar writtn on small things or larg, ut apt that th knowlg of oth larg an small lttrs is part of th sam raft an isiplin? That s asolutly ssntial. Thrfor, if somon s soul has a fin an autiful haratr an his oy maths it in auty an is thus in harmony with it, so that oth shar in th sam pattrn, wouln t that th most autiful sight for anyon who has ys to s? It rtainly woul. An isn t what is most autiful also most loval? Of ours. An a musial prson woul lov suh popl most of all, ut h wouln t lov anyon who lak harmony? No, h wouln t, at last not if th ft was in th soul, ut if it was only in th oy, h put up with it an willing to mra th oy who ha it. I gathr that you lov or hav lov suh a oy yourslf, an I agr with you. Tll m this, howvr: Is xssiv plasur ompatil with moration? How an it, sin it rivs on ma just as muh as pain os? What aout with th rst of virtu? No. 403 Wll, thn, is it ompatil with violn an lintiousnss? Vry muh so. 28. S 368.