09 rules forum DOOLEYS State League Rules Forum. Meeting held: 3rd August 2009 Meeting opened 7.11pm. Attendees:

Transcription

1 2009 DOOLEYS State League Rules Forum Meeting held: 3rd August 2009 Meeting opened 7.11pm Attendees: Jenny Pike (Baulkham Hills) Gail Baker (Baulkham Hills) Denise Thrift (Blue Mountains) Estelle Godkin (Blue Mountains) Julie Scholte (Camden) Jennie Thompson (Hills District) Cheryl Lees (Hills District) Margaret Coghlan (Hills District) Dianne Selby (Hunter & C.C. United) Annette Podryhula (Hunter & C.C. United) Kathy Halcrow (Inner Western Suburbs) Allayne Hobbs (Inner Western Suburbs) Jennie Webster (Liverpool City) Noel Harrod (Netball ACT) Joy Gillett (Penrith) Patricia Mann (Penrith) Jan Ebelt (Penrith) Annemaree Punch (Randwick) Fran Reynolds (Randwick) Michelle Fisher (Randwick) Lara Mina (St George) Jenny Barker (Bankstown City) Beverley Dew (Manly Warringah) Helen Andrews Anne Margalit (Ku-ring-gai) Grant Corderoy (Ku-ring-gai) Prue Haberecht (Sutherland Shire) Maria Lynch (Sutherland Shire) Samantha Dawes (City of Sydney) Lyn Bonnett (Eastwood Ryde) Jenny Gage (Northern Suburbs) Samantha Robinson (Northern Suburbs) Dianne Pascoe (Hunter & C.C. United) Roslyn Richards (Hunter & C.C. United) Helen Dean (Manly Warringah) Jane Hauser (Manly Warringah) Anne Doring (Eastwood Ryde) Marilyn Latham (Eastwood Ryde) Judy Watt (Eastwood Ryde) Helen Atzemis (City of Sydney) Julian Finch (Inner Western Suburbs) Marie Leonard (Bankstown City) Carol Baiton (Bankstown City) Jenny Maher (Baulkham Hills) Kerrin Thomas (Camden) Jenny Bazley (Camden) Robert Bracken (Camden) Julie Lyons (Blacktown City) Kerrie Wallace (Blacktown City) Karen Mellenbergh (Blacktown City) Sandra Marks (Blacktown City) Wendy Archer (President, NNSW) Rodney Watson (V. President, NNSW) John Hahn (Director, NNSW) Ruth Havrlant (Director, NNSW) Carol Murphy (Director, NNSW) Lynn Quinn (Director, NNSW) Carolyn Campbell (General Manager, NNSW) Kath Tetley (NNSW) Gail Eckert (NNSW) Rebecca O Brien (NNSW)

2 W. Archer welcomed attendees and thanked them for taking the time to attend the forum. Wendy gave a background to the proposal and an overview of what the proposal contains L. Quinn spoke to individual points of the proposal: 1. Why an individual point score? Manly Warringah: Feel that Waratah Cup should have 8 teams L. Quinn: Advised the meeting is not discussing the number of teams in WC at the moment Camden: Concerned about 9 players being used to establish ranking points. It is hard to know year to year whether you will have 9 players to carry over teams. Nine players also limits the number of players you can promote at the start of the season. Propose 7 players. Bankstown City: Support Camden s view that 9 players is too many. Difficult for Districts that don t have top teams to attract players and often play with only 10 in a team. Therefore could only afford one retirement at season end to maintain status. Also support promotion of teams winning divisions Bankstown City: Five players is too few, but 9 players is too many. Need to find an agreeable number somewhere between the two Sutherland Shire: Support previous speakers. Support 7 as 7 players on the court. Suggest that if teams are tied using 7 players, extra players named in the team could then be used to break deadlock ERNA: Support 7 players Manly Warringah: Points weighting. Players who are out for a season are of no value to a top team and therefore will not be selected, but then if they are filtered into lower grades they could skew the balance of those teams and grades L. Quinn: Players coming back with no status can still be selected into WC Manly Warringah: Yes, but they do not help a team to gain a WC grading and therefore won t be selected by teams L. Quinn: If you use 7 players only then there is no weight to the argument of players coming back with no status as there will be 5 free spaces to register player with no, or low status Sutherland Shire: The system puts pressure on selectors as they will have to play a numbers game rather than selecting players that should be in certain teams L. Quinn: Every association is in the same situation. Every team will have turnover. We need to look at the proposal with the long term future of the competition in mind 2. The need for equity Bankstown City: Teams that finish bottom of divisions currently disband due to the relegation rules Northern Suburbs: Concerns about going from 9 points to 0 points if a player is out for a year. Can there be a sliding scale whereby points are deducted for each year out? L. Quinn: There is a need to have status from previous 1 year only because otherwise teams can bypass the previous year status/result to the status from 2 years prior if that is better than the previous year Ku-ring-gai: Relegation rule: no point having promotion and relegation rules if they are not going to be enforced as provisional grading in Believes that players should be deducted 1 point for coming last

3 Bankstown City: Supports both promotion and relegation. There has to be incentive to promote, and supports rewarding the Grand Final teams, not just the winner. Also supports the team coming last being penalised. The rules need to acknowledge and reflect that players go to uni, have babies etc as accommodating these choices is what makes our sport great W. Archer: Board knows that the paper is not perfect but what we have now is a nightmare. Hard decisions have to be made and a line has to be drawn in the sand to make a competition that is fair for all 80 teams across the competition. The first year of new rules will disadvantage some districts but this will balance out over the ensuing years. When the new system was overlaid on the current grading only 4 teams were found to be graded differently L. Quinn: When we talk about uni, pregnancy etc where do we draw the line as to what we give exceptions for. Players need to make a choice. HDNA: The proposed system puts pressure on girls to make life choices with respect to their netball careers. Can we not give players who miss one year some sort of status? BHSNA: Did the new system get overlaid on the current grading based on 7 players as well as 9? R. Watson: Did the exercise today based on 7, 8 and 9 players not ready to commit the results as they are raw and unchecked but by and large the teams remained the same. Some differences were stark however in the context of 75 teams for 2009 the anomalies were not that bad. Of 763 players put forward for grading in 2009, only 35 players relied on 2007 status for grading. Of these, a number have not yet taken the court Sutherland Shire: Surely you need only word it to say that status will go on the most recent year they have played. This covers players who played in 2009 and players who missed 2009 but still allows them to have status. Weighting: why not make it based on 100 points (ie. Winner WC gets 99 points, last place WC gets 90 points). ACT: Please give consideration to ANL and ACT State League and give a relevant status to these players to encompass the ACT players that cannot necessarily play WC in a given year due to the travel commitments the players have to make L. Quinn: Will give consideration, however we must be mindful not to discriminate against our own players as all our ANL players come from WC An informal vote was taken to gain a general consensus for how many players associations believed should be used to in order to determine a team s ranking points. In favour of 9 players? None ERNA: It is difficult to give an indication without seeing the stats for 7 players L. Quinn: The Board is seeking a general feeling so this can be taken back for discussion In favour of 9? None In favour of 8? None In favour of 7? Majority

4 3. The need to produce a set of criteria based on Netball NSW needs L. Quinn: Using 9 players leaves associations with 3 places to register development or non-status players 7 players will leave 5 places Liverpool City: Doesn t feel comfortable that a player who is out due to injury and therefore loses status is disadvantaged L. Quinn: The competition will run into problems if we start making exceptions and it is difficult to know where to draw the line with what exceptions would be made. Most injured players are better served to come back into lower grades in any case 4. Why late registration provisions? to maintain integrity and equity in playing standard of the relevant competition Ku-ring-gai: Support the new rule that 3 game up players would be classed as late registration Bankstown City: Who pays the second late registration fee? L. Quinn: Some further consideration to the wording of the rule would need to be given Sutherland Shire: Players who are a WC Cup lever players but have no status could be registered into SL 8 next year L. Quinn: Yes, and this can happen now Sutherland Shire: The point being that under the new late registration rule you end up using your bottom team as a late registration vehicle and then what happens when that team itself needs players late registered (due to injury etc) L. Quinn: De registrations can affect the grading of a team and that is why we need to put these restrictions in place to protect against this. Based on 2009, there were a number of teams whose grading would have changed dramatically under the new system Sutherland Shire: If a team has 9 players they should be able to late register players with no status if this doesn t change the numbers of the team. Need to word the policy to say that they can late register players with no status if it doesn t affect the status of the team. If it does change the numbers of the team the late registration shouldn t be allowed L. Quinn: Agree with that point and take on board the suggestion The discussion turned to promotion and relegation: R. Watson: The examples that we distributed with the proposal were indicative only and it will take 2 years for the system to even out. We are talking our premier league competition and I think we reward the winner and not the team that comes 2nd, 3rd, 4th Bankstown City: System of adding 1 point for winner is very different if you are playing Division 2 as opposed to Division 8 W. Archer: The Board is trying to put together a set of rules that are workable for the competition to be run. It will take a number of years to tweak the system to get it right. The current proposal is not perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

5 Bankstown City: Agree. We are not trying to be critical, but rather we are trying to put our input in to help try to make the system better. We are concerned that in simplifying the system we have made it too rigid. We need a rigid system, but not so tight that it is suffocating. If a player comes back after a year for any reason they shouldn t have to go into the lowest team. Districts should have the right to place their players where they feel they belong 5. The ability for development L. Quinn: Already covered in discussions on previous points 6. Why only 1 year status? L. Quinn: Already covered in discussions on previous points 7. Rewards the winner L. Quinn: Already covered in discussions on previous points 8. Does not penalise the vanquished? L. Quinn: Discussed and agreed to relook at wording for late registrations 9. Provides for certainty L. Quinn: All status information will available on website and therefore districts can be somewhat confident when submitting their team for grading. Districts can also be confident that grading is objective 10. Why a Statutory Declaration? The entry is from a District not a player Sutherland Shire: Object to signing a statutory declaration as players shop themselves around without letting the associations know what they are doing. Are the players going to be penalised for not telling the truth to an association they choose not to play for at the last minute? Ku-ring-gai: The flip side that that argument is that currently players are registered by other associations without the players knowledge. We need to stop players names being used by associations without their knowledge Front row 2nd from left: Believes it should be the responsibility of the player. They should sign the team form and should only be permitted to sign one sheet

6 Manly Warringah: Our association has been in this situation and in this case the player didn t have the strength to say no to one association. Our players sign a player agreement when trialling signalling their intent to play for Manly Warringah. Manly Warringah supports the signing of a Statutory Declaration in the sense that it gives the association certainty R. Watson: The Statutory Declaration is designed to protect players from being wrongly and unknowingly named on team registration forms Sutherland Shire: What happens to players who are on two team lists when their decision not to play for a particular association then adversely affects the association that the player chose not to play for? Unknown: Has a solicitor looked at this form? W. Archer: Yes, a solicitor and barrister Blacktown City: Every association has suffered from player deception. That said, it should be as simple as the players signing the team form and this should suffice. Players should only be permitted to sign one form L. Quinn: How do you know they have only signed one form? We can t stop players trialling and submitting for multiple teams and then deciding at the last minute where they will play Sutherland Shire: Perhaps a solution is that every district announces their team on a set date, 7 days prior to NNSW entries closing. That gives 7 days between the announcement and entries closing to tweak teams according to any changes L. Quinn: Don t disagree but something like that would take a lot of cooperation across all associations W. Archer: This concept would only work with mandatory cooperation across associations Manly Warringah: To formalise that suggestion, perhaps entries are into NNSW 7 days prior to grading which then gives 7 days for associations to replace players R. Watson: I believe we are making a mountain out of a mole hill on this issue. The Statutory Declarations are not intended to trap associations. They are intended to protect players names from being used without their knowledge to gain advantage for the district concerned HDNA: We suggest a softly softly approach may be the best way to approach this issue to help get all districts on board. Get districts to sign an agreement that is not a statutory declaration and does not have a fine W. Archer: That makes us a toothless tiger and we have moved passed that point. We need to make some hard decisions. This has come about because of what we have experienced as an organisation and we need to move past it. We need to have a deterrent in place to stop this problem Camden: What is the intent of the line, If they are dissatisfied with what has been offered and seek to be placed in another District team R. Watson: It is aimed at assisting a player who can prove they did not agree to play for an association so they can then register with another association. This is not possible within current rules Camden: Need to look at wording as it doesn t come across this way L. Quinn: WC will start early to accommodate ANL in Opinion from the board is that all entries should close at same time. This will be 9 weeks prior to the start of the competition with the date being 5 February. The Board felt it was simpler to close all entries together rather than have two dates. The recommended commencement date for WC is 3 March 2010.

7 L. Quinn: Back on Manly Warringah s point regarding 8 teams in Waratah Cup the general opinion is that 10 teams is best for all districts as it creates more opportunities (100 vs 80). Reducing the number of teams in WC would also cut down on the number of opportunities for development into ANL ERNA: We ask our trialling players to pay their registration fee upfront and sign a commitment form at trials. If they do not do this they are not selected. If they do not withdraw by a pre-determined cut of date we do not refund their money. This is to cut down on players shopping around. Districts need to take more responsibility and not select shoppers. Associations who select shoppers are not helping anyone. All districts need to put in rules to stop players shopping 11. Appeals R. Watson described the appeals process under the current system R. Watson: If a team is adversely affected as a result of a player being removed from a list due to being incorrectly listed there is provision in the rules for the team to be regraded. R. Watson: Under the proposed system 99% of appeals should be abolished. The proposed Statutory Declaration system should abolish all player appeals Unknown: If we are talking about a fair and equitable system, and a winner from a lower division and a losing team from the higher division were on equal points and therefore the higher graded team prevailed, would there be an opportunity to appeal based on performance? R. Watson: Not currently within the proposed system, but I note that there have already been many comments based on weighting etc so this will go back to board for discussion. On the example provided in the discussion papers each team that won a grand final in 2008 moved up based on the loading they received Unknown: Lack of a relegation rule means that bottom teams may not disband because they are still a chance of maintaining their grade Unknown: But without relegation is there space for a team to be promoted with their weighting? Blacktown City: We need to look at margins. Where there are large margins in games there is obviously an inconsistency in grading. L. Quinn: This is not possible as it is subjective and open to argument based on a number of areas such as what line up was played in a game ERNA: We are concerned that there is no guarantee that teams finishing 1 and 2 will move up which forces players to shop around associations to get out of the middle grades Manly Warringah: Supports the earlier suggestion of weighting from 99 points for the winner of WC down Bankstown City: I would like to remind the board that it was passed at Council that at least one team would move in grading and this is not retained in the new proposal. This needs to be reconsidered

8 12. Administration C. Campbell spoke to the following points regarding the proposed administration of the DOOLEYS State League competition moving forward Competition to be administered by the Competitions Officer Duty Officer on duty each night or day of State League Rules, interpretations etc handled by Competitions Officer Netball NSW to maintain website and database City of Sydney: If a paid employee is to be in charge, what about the volunteers who currently work State League? Are they still required to assist? C. Campbell: Volunteers are, and will remain very important to State League and the work of Netball NSW but due to the nature of the competition and the increasing need to update and record information in an accurate and timely manner a paid employee is required. It is time to move into this era. Manly Warringah: Does this go outside of our constitution? Is this pre-empting moving to non-portfolio based Directors. Are we getting ahead of ourselves when we are bound by the constitution which dictates that the Championships and Competitions Committee administers the competition? C. Campbell: Not looking at it for next year. But looking ahead as we need to ensure the timely and accurate uploading and recording of State League information. Also ensures that there is someone from Netball NSW available out of hours to assist associations with enquires when they are actually at the Anne Clark Centre attending State League. Sutherland Shire: What is the cost involved in moving from volunteers to a paid employee? C. Campbell: Have looked at costs initially and it is my role to ensure that the Netball NSW staff is set up appropriately to fulfil the needs of the organisation J. Hahn: All districts can be assured that every competition and area of work for Netball NSW has a budget and works to a budget. A move like this will not go ahead unless it is able to be provided for in the budget Manly Warringah: Will the website reflect those players who have achieved status in their listed grade? C. Campbell: The website will continue to be updated and improved upon 13. Wrap Up W. Archer: Barrister and solicitor have overlooked the document that has been presented to districts for consideration The Board will take on board all of the comments made this evening and suggest that if districts have any other suggestions they will need to be submitted in writing to C. Campbell by 12 August 2009 ahead of the 18 August Board meeting

9 The whole document will be voted on at the 2009 November Council Meeting. The final document will be presented as a whole document and not in parts. Voting will be done on the whole document Unknown: We feel that another opportunity needs to be made available to districts to comment on board changes based on tonight s meeting W. Archer: I will try to get something back to districts but cannot guarantee this due to tight timelines Blacktown City: The last couple of November meetings have been a nightmare as worthwhile documents are pulled to pieces. Why do country districts get an opportunity to vote on State League Region 1 when it doesn t affect them? W. Archer: Because the constitution says so Sutherland Shire: We get the feeling that the Board is going to simply put forward what they want irrespective of what the districts are suggesting. Why can t the Board take on suggestions and then come back to districts for consideration before November? W. Archer: I implore districts to not vote down the rules document if there is one rule you don t agree with. The rules will be a work in progress over the next two years and needs to be looked at from the bigger picture perspective. There will be an opportunity for more feedback at the August council meeting Sutherland Shire: City associations need to lobby country associations to support their vote on this Unknown: Can there be another paper for reconsideration (either in the form of a forum or in circular ). There are things that haven t been fully discussed. Would like to see the revised plan so an informed vote can be conducted W. Archer: I don t think we can get another forum, but there shouldn t be a problem with a paper going out with suggestions coming in via with a cut off prior to the November Council papers going out Manly Warringah: It would be in the Boards best interest to conduct another forum in say, early September. Districts would only need a week to look at the document before coming to discuss it. This way the Board would have confidence come November and city associations can lobby country associations. It would be a tragedy for this document to go under because of indecision and poor preparation W. Archer: There comments are noted and I will see where we can squeeze it in Blacktown City: Does NNSW need to be at the next forum? Can t we all get together to discuss it ourselves? W. Archer: Yes, NNSW does need to be at any future forums HDNA: The Under 17s competition? Has there been decision on whether the 17s comp will go ahead? W.Archer: Yes, the 17U competition will go ahead. In the first year it will be on a home and away basis and Districts will decide what time the game will be played when they host. Meeting closed 9.28pm